Women allowed in Freemasonry?

by Bree
(Nashua, NH)

Why aren't women allowed to join Freemasons? I do know that there was a woman accepted a few years ago.

Thanks, Bree

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Feb 05, 2011
Women Freemasons
by: Tim

Bree,

Thank you very much for your question. The topic of women Freemasons is not merely complicated but it quickly becomes controversial, as well. There are, of course, whole organizations and appended bodies within the Masonic family for women, but this doesn't really address the question of why women can't join a Masonic Lodge.

The short answer is, it's tradition and tradition is very important in Freemasonry. That's how our ancient Brethren did it; that's how it's always been done; and, that's how it is. But, that still doesn't really answer the question of why, does it?

I imagine if you gathered together a thousand Freemasons and ask them this question you would get at least a thousand different answers. So far as I know there is no official reason. But, I can tell you why I think it's still a good idea that women do not join the Lodge. To put it as succinctly as I possibly can, when women are around men become idiots.

The Masonic Lodge is meant to be a place of peace and harmony, a sacred retreat of friendship and virtue. Within this refuge men gather on an equal footing and set aside their differences to labor for the good of each other, the community and all of mankind. It's difficult enough to maintain this peace and harmony when the Masonic Lodge is made up only of men. If women were entered into the mix, with all our masculine weaknesses and insecurities, it would be near to impossible.

Maybe that's not the reason at all. Maybe that's just my justification for the segregation. Maybe there is no good reason. But, I do believe that given the wisdom our ancient Brethren evinced in all manner of things, they must have had their reasons.

For more information regarding Masonic bodies available to women please see the Can a Woman Become a Freemason page.

Thank you again for this question. Hopefully, others will share their own thoughts on the matter.

Fraternally,

Tim

Sep 21, 2011
Women being masons
by: Anonymous

I understand the concept that I read above, that the men become .. Not so brotherly I guess how u said it? When women are around and as a women in my 20s at first I was like u know what, fair enough. But then I thought of my Easter Star group and there are masons and women and I have never felt uncomfortable or felt that they feel uncomfortable. I acctuley feel like the combination of equilness between the men and women somehow elevate the whole experience and I appreciate that. That alone has shown me more about the masonic principles than any words could teach. So if it's ok to have them cohabitate for 100 years without incedent then it's kinda officially been proven that it is possible but I respect your opinion. And I respect the rules and will fallow them. Tho I will say I would love to have the opportunity to be a mason one day but I am more than happy in my eastern star group and do not want for anything. But I think it would be pretty awsome as I have an extreme love of tradition and history and like to learn all that I can. But I guess I'll have to wait and see how it all works out.

Oct 06, 2011
Women being Masons - good point
by: Tim

Dear Anon,

I see your point. If men and women can function successfully in the Star, why not in the Lodge?

In the spirit of full disclosure I confess that I am not a member of the Star. Not for any particular reason. My wife has no interest in joining and I have not felt the need to. So, my reasoning on the subject may not be the best, but here it is...

As I understand the way the Star works the Ladies run the show. The men are basically arm-candy and do as they're told. I can see how that would work so long as everyone understands the arrangement going in. There's no competition between the sexes.

But, I'm not so sure that would work so well in the Lodge. During a Lodge meeting men occasionally disagree, sometimes heatedly, but they do not then have to go home together after the meeting. I'm not saying this is a good reason for keeping things separate, but it is something to consider.

I also have to admit I think any good person can benefit from the experience of Masonic ritual and tradition. I think the future holds a place for Co-Masonry as well as women-only Lodges, but whether these will ever be commingled with regular Masonic lodges is another matter altogether.

Thanks for your comments and food for thought.

Oct 30, 2011
Women being Masons
by: Anonymous

I guess no one dares say it. And everyone has to be politically correct so they won't. However, I'm not a Mason, I'm considering it, but haven't petitioned, and have no association with the masons at this point.

I'm going to GENERALIZE here, so don't scold me and say "I don't do that".

A large percentage of Women run their lives based on their emotions and feelings, it's how they're wired, GENERALLY speaking.

Men on the other hand run their lives based on logic and reason.

I'm not saying either is better or worse, and in real life, it's very beneficial in the relationship to have checks and balances in both directions.

However, the Masons are not a husband/wife relationship, it's an organization created by men. These men formed it based on their views. Men's views, without the checks and balances from women.

Therefore it would be pretty much impossible for the Masons to continue as they are, on the path they've always taken, and follow the traditions created by men, if women were able to interject.

It would change. One might argue that it would change for better or for worse, but it would change.

I don't believe personally that the Masons should change, it's among the worlds oldest organizations, and has outlived many countries. That says something for it's structure.

So given that, I think it wise to keep it a fraternity.

I'm sure I'll be chastised here and called a sexist for suggesting there are differences between men and women. But there are. Physical, mental, emotional, quite often even moral.

Allow women if you want it to change, don't allow women if you want it to remain the same, I think it's as simple as that.

Dec 18, 2011
Wisdom unknown to the False Prophets
by: Anonymous

Women have no place in Masonry because they are wiser, and older, and more cunning than the ramrod Church of Reason, an order of thieves and charlatans at the top, and subservient automata at the bottom.

Show me the stone that the builders rejected: That is the cornerstone.

The Pharisees and the scribes have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered, nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.

There is nothing hidden that will not be revealed, and there is nothing covered that will remain undisclosed.

WHEN YOU MAKE THE TWO INTO ONE, AND WHEN YOU MAKE THE INNER LIKE THE OUTER AND THE OUTER LIKE THE INNER, AND THE UPPER LIKE THE LOWER, AND WHEN YOU MAKE MALE AND FEMALE INTO A SINGLE ONE, SO THAT THE MALE WILL NOT BE MALE NOR THE FEMALE BE FEMALE, THEN YOU WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM.

Having kept secret the reality of the Adam Kadmon, under sanction of silence, and sent humanity into a vice of darkness, the Masons would do well to remember that Whoever blasphemes against the father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven. There is light within a person of light, and it lights up the whole world. If it does not shine, it is dark.

Your days are numbered, control is slipping away, and the silence guarding your secrets of darkness will not fathom The Light.

Jan 10, 2012
re:
by: Anonymous

"days are numbered" ....must be speaking of radical feminism!

Jan 15, 2012
women in masonry
by: Ana

I find the anonymous comment from Oct 30 to be most offensive. There is no genetic evidence that women base their decisions on emotions and men on logic.

I, personally, believe women should be admitted. I have been reading extensively about masons and find them to be dedicated to rationality of mind, among other things.

The rule against women was created in a time when women were thought to be less than men. Nowdays, women are considered politically, socially, scientifically equal to men. I can find no logical basis to continue to exclude them.

Furthermore, the old requirements required a man to be "sound of body." It was explained to me that that this is no longer strictly followed because it was a rule created when the masons were actual stonemasons and physically impaired men would not be able to join this trade. It seems incongruent, then, that other outdated rules with no continuing rational basis are still followed.

I have also read that "Each person must learn and practice self-control. Each person must make sure his spiritual nature triumphs over his animal nature." If this were true of a mason, it would seem to me that the presence of women should not disrupt his intellectual discourse. I believe men, especially masons, to be capable of putting aside their animal attraction to women and relating to them intellectually as equals. Masons can put aside other differences they have with other humans in the name of peace and harmony, so why is gender such an indefeatable challenge?

And, if a possibility sexual attraction is the mason's bane, are gay men unallowed to join? Or are they capable of putting aside their attraction to each other long enough to think of something higher?

Thank you for your time,
~Ana

Jan 22, 2012
Seriously
by: Anonymous

The very principle that makes the Freemasons who they are is basically what makes them in my opinion currupt as religion. For it is the notion of free thinking that is the foundation and it's principles. To not allow a gender into the fraternity goes against that principle thought! It's biased, and bias is not stength, but pure ignorance, that in turn breeds more ignorance. Our common element is we are all human !

Feb 20, 2012
mcp
by: Anonymous

This is directed at the "man"who posted on Jan. 10. Since when is feminism radical ? It is simply half the population of humans on this earth demanding to be treated with the same consideration given to the other half of the human population.

Apr 04, 2012
Equality
by: Natasha

How come Freemasons stand for equality with race, nationality or even sexuality when it comes to men, but not with gender? It's incomprehensible in my eyes. Everyone should have the same rights. Do men not have to go through an interview stage before they are accepted? Why can't women be put through that as well to observe that any particular woman won't unbalance the harmony. Surely masons are meant to be strong minded and won't be uncomfortable or distracted with something as little as women being accepted also. I'm sorry if some people perceive this as being whiny but it just doesn't fit in my head. I know it's all about tradition and it's impressive that it has been kept that way for so long but women are equal to men in pretty much all other aspects of life, so why not this?

Apr 16, 2012
not whiny
by: Anonymous

You voicing your opinion is not whiny. People who want to silence you or who disagree with you label your opinion as whiny. Once again, my husband has gone to the lodge and once again I feel sick to my stomach. I tell him this but he refuses to quit. I don't know if I can continue to live with him supporting gender discrimination.

May 09, 2012
Women and Freemasonry
by: Scott

I am Sr. Warden of my lodge, and I can tell you that there is no actual reasoning behind it today. However, what I will say is that there are some things better left as they are. There is nothing in freemasonry that women would not be able to understand or do. It is mainly a matter of tradition. Just like the catholic church does not allow women to become priests, not because they wouldn't be able to do it, but that's how it's always been done. Masons try to stay as close to the original teachings of the fraternity and do not like change. Let's keep in mind though, that there are thousands of men only fraternities, and women only sorities, this is just another example. We do care for women very much in masonry, in fact we probably wouldn't be able to survive without our wives and families in masonry. This is why we have made the other bodies such as the Eastern Star, Job's daughters, rainbow girls, amaranth, etc. But regular Masonry will not allow women for the same reasons we don't change anything else in masonry, because it's tradition. You may think it to be terrible of an organization to not welcome change, but it is what it is. Plus, men need a place to go where we can get away from women for a while lol. I say that not out of disrespect but just because it's true. For the person that asked about gay people, they are welcome in most lodges but they are better to keep quiet about it. Masonry is very conservative and old fashioned but it's a don't ask don't tell process. A man is still a man no matter what his sexual orientation is, but we ask everyone to keep their sexuality to themselves if they think it could cause trouble. Thanks for reading hope this helps a little bit!

May 10, 2012
Wisdom of our ancient Masonic Brethren
by: Tim

Actually, there is sound reasoning behind the ancient tradition of maintaining the Masonic Lodge as a men only sanctuary. And now, science has demonstrated that our ancient Brethren knew what they were doing. A new article from Scientific American about a recent study explains it much better than I can:

"Why Interacting with a Woman Can Leave Men "Cognitively Impaired""

To quote from the conclusion of the article:

"Overall, it seems clear that whenever we face situations where we’re particularly concerned about the impression that we’re making, we may literally have difficulty thinking clearly. In the case of men, thinking about interacting with a woman is enough to make their brains go a bit fuzzy."

So, it's not an anitquated tradition after all. It's science.

May 11, 2012
Women are the weaker then man.
by: MIKE D

I used to be a proponent of equality amongst the sexes in all matters of life largely because I have 5 sisters and was raised by a single mother in America. Only after traveling around the world several times did women teach me the larger truth. The fact is that women are weaker than men overall. This is physically visible when we look at the physical strength of a woman, but this also extends to the mental strength of the two genders. Look at the disproportionate gap in men to women that hold leadership positions. In America this kind of rhetoric is unacceptable, and these are not my feeling but the beliefs of women that I have encountered.

May 11, 2012
Hi Mike
by: Anonymous

You must have encountered women with a far different outlook than mine.

I'll have to look into that article but the initial article you quoted Tim, could be interpreted in many ways. Just because a psychologist carries out an experiment, does not mean the results apply to any situation. Results of experiments must be able to be duplicated by others and I have not seen that the experiment has been duplicated.

So, what if a person who was a woman and had a sex change wanted to become a mason ? Could he ? What about a transgender woman who still has a penis ? I think fraternities or sororities are outdated and unnecessary as well.

My husband should have known that the whole thing would be unacceptable to me. I just try to make it as difficult as possible for him to attend. Hopefully he'll get it one of these days.

May 13, 2012
Scott
by: Anonymous

The OES is not masonry. That point was emphasized during my initiation. I want the same symbolism and learning as my husband experiences. Masons are like little boys with their forts. No girls allowed. One would think that by adulthood, they could leave these childish notions behind. Particularly so as they love to congratulate themselves on how wise and morally superior to others they have become since becoming masons. Over the past year in which my husband has become a mason, I have learned that basically, it is an organization of pathetic, old fools. They love women as long as the women behave in ways that are acceptable to them. I choose to conduct my life in ways that I find are acceptable to myself. We need to stop questioning why there are no women in masonry. They have no answer that makes a lick of sense. (By the way Tim, the research you have cited lacks a sample group of variable ages as the average age of the sample group is 21 years.)

May 13, 2012
You make my point...
by: Tim

The fact that you think age would make a difference demonstrates my point: men and women are different. The age of the man does not matter. The only difference is that at 19 years of age we want all women to like us, and at ninety years experience has taught us that not all will. Regardless though, at any age when dealing with a woman our lizard brain is always whispering from the deep recesses of our mind, "She's pretty; I want her to like me." It's just nature.

Can men and women thrive in a mutual setting? Sure, but in different ways than in separate settings. We have our setting and we like it that way. You want to be a Mason, co-Masonry and women only Masonry is available to you. Go for it.

But then, maybe you don't want to be a Mason. I can't tell because you are an enigma. On one hand you state that you, "..want the same symbolism and learning as my husband experiences," but in the same paragraph you state that Masonry, "...is an organization of pathetic, old fools." So, why do you want the symbolism and learning of pathetic old fools?

May 14, 2012
Tim
by: Anonymous

I do not wish to be a mason any more. The way in which the whole thing operates makes me sick. Seriously ? "She's pretty and I want her to like me." ? I could understand that a 21 year old with raging hormones could think that way but not someone who perhaps requires viagra.

May 23, 2012
Advice please...
by: Anonymous

My new boyfriend decided to tell me after living with me for 9 months that's he's a Freemason, he stopped going to lodge for a year but now wants to return. His parents have bullied me to allow him to go, so I asked questions that he would not answer, I have researched it & it makes me feel sick. Why didn't he tell me in the beginning, instead he made sure he was very much part of my life & went everywhere with me, he didn't want me to do anything on my own, he still doesn't. I suggested I would go out with my friends when he goes to lodge but this upset him. Double standards! I let him go on one night & asked about it when he returned, he told me of rituals where people are buried, stabbed in the heart or cut throat, that to me sounds sick. I have decided that if he wants to go then he must leave me, it disagrees with all of my beliefs. If I could go too I would more than likely support it, given the chance. I feel this has put a huge wedge between us & his parents don't like me now. So is this in the spirit of masonry? I am a kind hearted, honest & loyal person who does a lot for charity & people in general but im not good enough for him. He says he won't go but it's something he's done for 10 years so will always be with him & in the back of my mind. Has anyone any advice?

May 23, 2012
eye roll
by: Anonymous

Ditch him ! You don't want anything to do with this mason b.s., believe me. You can do better.

May 23, 2012
Advice please
by: Anonymous

Thank you, I thought he was my Mr Perfect though & I'm sad that this has changed everything. I would like to forget about it. I constantly think of ditching him but need to be sure I won't regret it, he has said he will leave masonry as I'm more important to him. Now I know that it's not just a lads night out, that it's a religion & a faith it seems to have more of an effect on me. I'm so paranoid. Is it likely I'll get over it & is it likely he will? I'm actually obsessed by it now & it's eating away at me. I wish it would go away. I've tried to remember what was so perfect about him & it was because he was normal, so I thought, now I think he's far from normal. Do I throw away a chance of happily ever after, just in case?? Sorry for being so dramatic, this isn't like me at all :(

May 23, 2012
Women are the best!!!
by: Blue eyes

I would suggest the reason they don't allow women in now is that whenever women get involved in something they make it better & can make the men seem useless. Men are SCARED of women. Women can work full time, be a mother, clean the house, have food on the table, pay the bills, look amazing & still find time for more. The mason men would be no more the minute the better sex got in there!!!!

May 23, 2012
Cut him loose...
by: John

I agree; cut him loose. He needs your permission to do something he loves, enjoys and finds fulfilment in? By all means, ditch him. His parents want their son to be happy? What's up with that? Kick him to the curb.

Your research into Freemasonry made you feel sick? Then you haven't a clue what it's about. He wasn't keeping a secret from you until he became engrained in your life. Masonry becomes a part of those who take it seriously. It's a fraternity that we belong to. It's not a faith or religion. Your research should have told you that. It is a system of moral teachings which uses symbolism and allegory as its teaching tools. It teaches and encourages a man to live life honorably and in service to his fellowman.

The rituals are morality plays which teach, among other things, the importance of keeping one's promises; to continually study and educate oneself in order to be a useful and contributing member of society, and that deeds done while here in the body can have lasting consequences or provide lasting blessings for others long after we're gone.

Your boyfriend hasn't changed. He's still the guy you thought was "Mr. Perfect." You've simply learned something about him that you didn't know before, (although, he does sound a little controlling if he doesn't want you going anywhere without him.) I would imagine there are things about you that he does not yet know.

It sounds to me like you were looking for an exit strategy and you've decided that his being a Mason is it. So, take a bow, cut him loose, and let him find someone who actually knows what loyalty means.

May 23, 2012
advice
by: Anonymous

I believe your Mr.Perfect is very controlling. Sounds like his parents are the same way. If they are poking their noses into your lives now, it will only become worse if you marry this guy. Let me guess. He didn't once tell his parents to mind their own business did he ?

Freemasonry has become the bane of my existence. They will never admit it is a religion. It doesn't make guys better men. If I ever thought my husband would join up, knowing what I know about it now, I would have thought long and hard about marrying him.

Don't believe what the last guy said. It's not a matter of loyalty. It's a matter of you being with someone who does the right thing. It is my experience that a man involved in freemasonry is not that type of person. I wish it would just go away as well and we could just live our normal life again. Don't have regrets. If he's out of the way, there will be room for someone better for you.

May 24, 2012
Response to John & Anonymous
by: Anonymous

John, Thank you for taking the time to respond, did I hit a nerve? I find your comment, "let him find someone who knows what loyalty means" quite offensive. It surprises me that as a man and a freemason you are going to a better world, eternal life but your wife and daughters or female kin or friends are not worthy of such a thing. What I am beginning to find is that men involved in this are more in love with this than their families, although arent families supposed to be one of the most important things? My boyfriend stopped going for a year and didnt want to return, his father kept on and on and eventually when that wasnt working they involved me, thats how I learnt about it, both of his parents bullied me into talking him into it. I would never have known about it if they hadnt become involved & he was clearly happy that way, perhaps he realises that its not the be all and end all. I feel sorry for you and others like you who clearly have nothing more satisfying in life than this. Believe it or not morals and honour arent just something taught by freemasons. Are you saying your parents and schooling didnt teach you these things? When my partner left, his marriage had broken down, none of his so called brothers even attempted to make any contact to check he was ok, when he returned for one meeting, approximately 5 out of 70 asked how he was, nothing deep just surface questions, why would that be? Because they dont really care and by acting the rituals and saying the same things over and over again makes them think that they are good, but in fact when they leave that room they are the same as everyone else, if not worse because of the opinion and arrogance they have of themselves. I know if a close friend or sister of mine was unhappy and needed me I'd be there in person like a shot. Its a sad shame that you feel the need to brainwash people into believing they need to be a FM to be a good person. He has seen that in me and understands that he doesnt need to be a FM to fulfil that. Lets just see how his parents react because that will make all the difference. He said he did it for his dad, when I asked if he would include his son in time, he said never, again why would that be? Some things i will never know and in honesty would prefer not to.

To the person who left the last comment, thank you. Its a shame that men cannot see whats right in front of their noses. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your honesty.

May 24, 2012
Neither Angels nor Demons...
by: John

Hello Anon,

My remark regarding loyalty was in response to your claim that you are a loyal person when you seemed to be abandoning a relationship of nine months because you learned something new about your boyfriend, and didn't wish to understand it. That doesn't sound like loyalty to me.

In your original post you said that he wanted to return to Lodge. Now, you say that he does not want to, but his parents are bullying you both. If he doesn't want to go to Lodge, then he shouldn't go. Becoming a Mason is a choice, just as attending meetings is a choice, as is remaining a member. It won't do him or anyone else any good if he doesn't want to be there.

You also stated that your research of Freemasonry made you feel sick and that it disagrees with all your beliefs. But then, in the very next sentence you say that you would support it if you could go too. Forgive me for being confused.

Freemasonry has nothing to do with gaining eternal life. It is not a religion. It offers no path to salvation. It has no Religious doctrine. I don't know how else to say it. It's not a religion. It's a fraternity.

Freemasonry is never supposed to interfere with the family. And yes, the family is more important. Some men do take it to the extreme, just as some men watch too much sports or spend more time at work than they should. If a man is spending too much time at the Lodge and not enough at home, then it's the man's fault and not the Lodge's.

No one needs to be a Freemason. It's a choice, and we do not claim to have some sort of monopoly on honor and morality. It's a fraternity with fundamental tenets of morality and honor.

I'm sorry about your partner. I can't speak to that as I don't know the circumstances, but I can say that being a member of a Masonic Lodge does not necessarily mean that you become personally intimate with every other member. You form a few close personal relationships, many friendly acquaintances, and with the rest you are simply members of the same club. The promises we make are to help, aid and assist, and I feel certain that had he asked for help or let it be known that he needed assistance he would have received it. As you say, you would come to the aid of a close friend or sister. Any close friend would; this has nothing to do with being or not being a Mason.

In summation, if he doesn't want to be a Mason then he shouldn't be one. He should be honest with his parents and move on. And, everyone needs to stop blaming the organization for the very human faults of its members. We're just men and women doing the best we can, like everyone else. We're neither angels nor demons.

Best regards,

May 25, 2012
bigotry
by: Anonymous

John. By being involved in an organization that does not accept as members people of either gender, my husband is supporting gender discrimination. That is the fault of the organization. Period.

May 27, 2012
Where's the beef?
by: John

No, it's your opinion that the organization is discriminatory, but there are hundreds of thousands of Masonic wives and widows who would disagree with you. The fact remains, however, that yours is a matter to be settled between you and your husband. It's not the organization's fault that you don't like the way it's set up.

I love the way you say, "Period" as if you've made a point.

Best,

May 28, 2012
discrimination
by: Anonymous

People of either gender are not welcome to join the masons. That is discrimination.

Jun 12, 2012
Calling wives or girlfriends of Freemasons
by: Anonymous

Hi all. Are you the wife or girlfriend of a Freemason? If so I'd be really interested in knowing your views on it. Good or bad. How it makes you feel? As a new girl to all of this I have my own views but am interested in yours. Thank you.

Jun 13, 2012
calling all wives or girlfriends
by: Anonymous

As you can tell from my previous posts, I am not at all happy that my husband continues to participate in the masons because membership is limited to males only. Has your husband/significant other already joined ? Did anyone from the lodge come and talk to you abut any of the rules or expectations ? They didn't in my case and now it's too late. I beg him to quit every time he attends lodge.

Jun 13, 2012
Wives & GFs
by: Anonymous

He has been a mason for 10 years and was married during that time, somebody did go & meet his ex wife before he joined to talk about it, but his marriage has since broken down. Nobody has met with me but in honesty I wouldn't want anybody to as it wouldn't change my views. I have expressed my views to him quite a while ago & he said he doesn't want to go anymore, I've left that choice to him & haven't made any threats so would like to think that its a decision he's made alone. However I don't know what he's told his parents about his reasons for not going, but he doesn't seem to want us to mix anymore, he speaks to them & visits them when I'm at work and socially we've done nothing with them since his decision. I'm guessing he's used me as his excuse for not going and I also guess they are not happy about it. I constantly think that maybe I should persuade him to go, but would be doing that for the wrong reasons, to ease the situation with his parents, so instead I decided to not talk about it anymore & just see what happens & what he does. Apparently he asked his dad what book I could read to help me feel better about it but a book won't change the way I feel, no book has materialised anyway so it seems the whole thing has been swept under the carpet. It's still on my mind constantly though & the fact he's done it for 10 years & is a master mason will never go away. Is it just the fact that they don't allow women that angers you?

Jun 16, 2012
wives/girlfriends
by: Anonymous

Yes. The gender discrimination bothers me the most. If you are a devout Christian, you may be bothered by the idea that masons use the Bible but never mention Jesus. Anyway, if your partner is not attending lodge any longer, just be happy about it. His parents are not your problem. Yes, they will blame you for him quitting. So what ? Obviously the lodge was unimportant to him if the book did not materialize.

Jul 13, 2012
Hemp lady
by: Anonymous

Hemp lady is everywhere.

Dec 07, 2012
My boyfriend is a mason.
by: Anonymous

i couldnt be happier, at first i was a bit sceptical as he didnt really want to tell me anything, and my internet findings scared me... But hes opened up a tiny bit and now i realise that it means alot to him, its a family, something to look forward to and somewhere to relax without being nagged at... He did say i was welcome to visit the lodge, but i declined, i think he needs his own space and his own friends, its healthy to have other interests :) i have only been with him for two weeks but already i can see chivalry, a lovely sense that he cares for me and every mason we see in the street has welcomed me with open arms, i dont think its a cult, or anything bad, its purely a group where men can have their "man secrets", be accepted and maybe face their fears about public speaking haha!

Dec 08, 2012
Helped my fear of public speaking
by: Tim

Dear Anon,

I'm very pleased to hear that you kept an open mind toward Freemasonry until you could determine the truth for yourself. And, you are absolutely correct in regards to our fear of public speaking as an example of the good Masonry can do for each of us. When I became a Mason I was literally petrified of speaking in public. To this day I have one 'F' on my college transcript and it's for a public speaking class. Since becoming a Mason I have gone on to become a teacher and a lecturer. I regularly speak before small groups and large crowds, and actually enjoy it. Among other things, Masonry presents opportunities to step out of our comfort zone in an atmosphere of support and encouragement and attempt things that we might never have the courage to attempt otherwise.

Thank you for your comment on Masonsmart and please give my regards to your boyfriend.

Fraternally,

Tim

Dec 10, 2012
Advice Please
by: Anonymous

It is interesting that you have this conception that one gets stabbed, beaten etc in Masonry. This an absolute falsehood. If you have a boyfriend who is a Mason and has not corrected what you have somehow learned, then he is in error. Masonry is a men's fraternity where men work in harmony at all levels of life. Once you cross the threshold of a Masonic Lodge everyone is on a level field no matter what occupation you hold in the real world. The world society still needs men and women organizations where men talk about men stuff and women talk about women stuff. Masonry is a charity organization. Have you heard of the Shrine Hospitals, Scottish Rite Speech clinics etc? The foundation Masonic Blue Lodge is where all these other branches must start. Brotherly love is a hallmark of Masonry.

Dec 11, 2012
Cods wallop
by: Anonymous

What a load of cods wallop! Men & women can talk about men's & womens things anywhere haha. Brain washing is all it is & they got you matey!

Dec 29, 2012
men stuff ? women stuff ?
by: Hemp Woman

I am curious to know what anon considers "men stuff" and "women stuff". If "men's stuff" is sports, then I'd be interested too. If that is the case, why is that so secret anyway ? If by "women stuff" you mean menstruation and/or childbirth, those are not really big topics of discussion amongst my female friends. Even if they were, men are involved in those things so I'd discuss those topics with men if they wanted. Please anon, educate me.

May 27, 2013
Evolve
by: Kraus

I came across this page because I was curious as to whether or not the fraternity would allow women due to the fact that a local one had moved to a smaller location because they "could not afford the previous". Every day I walk across the street and admire the Scottish Rite building which is now vacant and curiosity led me to research.

Then, I read these comments. I am a woman. I have an intense personality. It is exhausting consciously finding a balance within myself while also trying not to overwhelm others "being myself". To the person who said that females are the weaker gender. You are mistaken. We are trained from birth to do what we do best. Take care of the home, take care of others,... promote growth. Men will never understand that. It is their insecurity that breeds this segregation. As I age, I appreciate more the difference within each sex. And while brain chemistry and genetics show that females are more advanced, I appreciate males. I am not a "feminist"; I am simply aware.

I also understand that modern freemasonry (and possibly past) is not something that I would like to be involved with. The fraternity crumbles. And while there will always be a few to pass on the traditions, it will only be a matter of time until it is extinct like all other ideas that refuse to adapt.

I will continue to admire the architecture of the abandoned Scottish Rite building but now have a new perspective. I have met a few current members of freemasonry and understand why the fraternity is crumbling.

And, for the men that say women distract them and what not. Of course we do. A beautiful woman who can think for herself is extremely intimidating. There is a reason for that. They call that power. Power that a man does not have... because there have been few men in my life that have had that effect on me. That doesn't make us weak, it makes you weak. I choose to control my power and that takes strength.

Jun 02, 2013
The future of Freemasonry...
by: Tim

Dear Kraus,

Thank you for visiting Masonsmart and for taking the time to share your observations and conclusions regarding Freemasonry. The errors of which are entirely reasonable and completely understandable. They are, in fact, simple human nature.

The Masonic fraternity is a reflection of the society in which it lives and works. Wherever freedom is treasured and appreciated, whether it be newly won or in peril of being lost, Freemasonry thrives. The Masonic fraternity exists throughout the world and while it may be struggling in some parts it is also taking root, blooming, blossoming and growing in others. Thus it is in nature; change is a constant state of being.

To view the entire Masonic fraternity through the prism of a single locale is an extremely narrow point of view. Indeed, in some parts of the world the local Lodges and Grand Lodges are struggling, but in others we are seeing an enthusiasm and rejuvenation of Masonry like most of us have only heard about in the old, 'how it used to be' stories of Masonic history.

Furthermore, to judge an entire organization consisting of millions of members worldwide based on having met a few local members is like assessing the state of the worlds oceans after having peered into a tide pool. It's a matter of perspective and while your observations may be accurate your data is far too shallow to support the depth and breadth of your conclusions.

It's also important to note the distinction between Freemasonry and the Masonic fraternity. Freemasonry is a philosophy; the Masonic fraternity is an organization made up of men, women and children. The fraternity does indeed have it's ups and downs, and could eventually crumble and become extinct. Similar such benevolent societies have in the past. But a sound philosophy, such as Freemasonry is, can not crumble and will never become extinct. While its popularity may wax and wane it will always find a place in the hearts of men and women who seek knowledge and understanding.

The questions that the philosophy of Freemasonry endeavors to assist us in answering are universal and innate. So long as man stands gazing to the heavens in wonder; so long as we seek to know ourselves and our brother; so long as we strive toward humanity, Freemasonry is in no danger of extinction.

Fraternally yours,

Tim

Oct 30, 2013
Tradition is used as an excuse, often...right up until it no longer is.
by: JenniWest

Having been born at a certain time in modern history, I definitely have one foot on each side. I have been told many times over the years, when I have inquired about particular careers, that because I don't have a penis, I am not allowed or would be wise to look elsewhere. When I was 17, I applied to Navy flight school and was told I need a penis to fly planes. I applied to be an astronaut in NASA, and was told that only people with penises can fly to space. I was told when I tried to go to school to be an architect, that I would not have an easy time because I would have to spend all my time at construction sites and that required a penis. They even went so far as to tell me that I would be overlooked in apprenticeships in favor of men, unless they were desperate.

That was in the 1970s. Now, in 2013, we all are much wiser. We know that people without penises make excellent pilots, astronauts and architects. Engineers. Construction workers. Etc. And guess what? People WITH penises make excellent nurses and nannies. So even on a practical level, that kind of discrimiation has given way to LOGIC and REASON.

All except the Freemasons and other "fraternal" organizations. Because men tend to think more LOGICALLY and REASONABLY, as per the previous comments, I'd like to hear the logical and reasonable reason why people without penises can't join the Masons.

Men and women work and live side by side in every area of life. So please spare us that silly "men don't behave around women" thing. That made me laugh out loud.

Oct 31, 2013
The logical and reasonable reason...
by: Tim

Wow, that is impressive. I don't see how you could have possibly crammed one more use of the word "penis" into that post. I hope you're not implying that the only difference between the two sexes is the existence or absence of the aforementioned appendage because that would be, well....sexist...wouldn't it?

The fact that the idea of men not behaving around women made you laugh out loud only demonstrates that you have as little understanding of the basic nature of men as we do of women. The earlier post was not intended to infer that men could not behave in a civilized manner in mixed company. You're right; we all do it every day and in every aspect of life. But the lodge is a refuge, a retreat, a place where men can be themselves absent of all the other roles of their lives. As you so rightly state, men and women work and live side by side in every area of life. That being so, is the occasional and harmless refuge truly so much to ask?

Of course we can behave ourselves in mixed company. Sometimes being in mixed company is the absolute best. But in mixed company we have other roles to play, roles that we cherish and love and that make our lives complete. And yet, while these may be our most important roles they do come possessed of a certain weight to carry. In the lodge we do not need to be the husband, father, son, provider, protector, defender or any other of the myriad roles we all play every day. For a few hours, once in a while we get to be a different version of ourselves, a version that taps into the basic nature of being a man and communing with other men.

Is this an experience that can be appreciated and enjoyed only by men? Certainly not. Can this experience be replicated in mixed company? I don't think so. But, is that a "logical and reasonable reason" to exclude women from Blue Lodge Masonry? As has been discussed earlier and elsewhere the teachings of Freemasonry are readily available. There are no copyright protections on its symbols. In short, Masons do not own Masonry. If you want to study Masonry, if you want to form a Masonic society, there's nothing stopping you from doing so. But then, this isn't about wanting to be a Mason is it? This is about not wanting to be excluded. I get that. We all want to be able to become whatever it is whether we really want to become that at all. Being disallowed, for any reason, flies in the face of our sense of justice and fairness. But then, nobody ever promised us life would be fair.

So, what is the "logical and reasonable reason" for excluding women from Blue Lodge Freemasonry? Frankly, and speaking only for myself as no one speaks for Freemasonry, I don't believe there is one. Fortunately though, and again speaking only for myself, we don't need one.

Respectfully yours,

Tim

Nov 24, 2013
Twoddle
by: Anonymous

What a load of twoddle, it's not even worth the questions/comments/opinions as the responses are clearly so very biased. If these men have a need to relax (which I think means pretend to stab each other, bury each other alive etc making them true gentlemen) without the company of women, who are we to stop them....

Nov 29, 2013
Exactly....
by: John

Exactly right. Thank you for understanding.

Dec 05, 2013
Get over it!
by: Traveler

My sister was a member of a sorority in College nobody complained that men couldn't join. I'm glad she had that experience! My wife loves the fact that I'm a mason. But then again she's not the insecure type. Masonry doesn't need to be defended, and control freaks often mask their insecurities with feminism this is obvious when they rant about how we should let them in and then turn right around in the same paragraph and denounce us as a bad organization. My advice, find a women's only club and quit complaining.

May 01, 2014
Well said!
by: Tom

Traveler, you've hit it right on the head.

Freemasonry doesn't need admiration, support or - especially - permission from those who criticize us for 'encouraging gender inequality' or some such twaddle. That they object, mock and criticize brings a major 'meh'. It's a fraternity, a group for men. Deal with it. What the ignorant and biased think is immaterial to us and the more inflamed they get - beyond pitying them for their closed, anger-dominated minds - the less we will care. Deal with that, too.

Frankly, while I greatly admire women as a group, I would not wish to sit together with some of the bitterness and finger-pointing seen above.

Jun 17, 2014
Support for FM
by: Steph

My Grandpa is a FM, he has been for 50+ years, I am not a "believer" in anything and I can't say that I understand FM even after reading all info on this site, but if there is a place my Pa can go to find some peace and harmony that supports his beliefs then it mustn't be too bad, obviously us females don't know what goes on behind closed doors, to be honest I don't really care.

He is proud to be a member, he is happy when he goes to Lodge and he is happy when he comes home from Lodge it's as simple as that. He loves it.

He gets to see friends that he has known since he joined, have some male bonding time and get out of the house (he and my grandma are both retired and home ALL the time so the best part of his week is to get out and go to Lodge)and he enjoys it. My Grandma could do the same if she wished with an organisation that she finds fitting but she chooses not to.

As long as he is happy going I support FM...I just don't understand it.

Reply from Tim:

Thank you Steph. Very well said and very much appreciated. If you haven't already expressed these feelings to your Pa I'd be willing to bet he would appreciate knowing how you feel. If he knows you're interested in understanding Freemasonry he might even try explaining what it means to him. Be prepared though, Freemasonry touches the heart and many of us have difficulty explaining it, even to ourselves. Like you, we know it's important but we don't always understand why.

Thanks again,

Tim


Jul 04, 2014
They see women as a curse
by: Zana Elohim Life Form

Freemasonry refer to women as being:
anathema  
1. women to be detested or loathed: That a woman is an anathema to the cult.
2.women to be accursed or consigned to damnation or destruction.
3.a formal ecclesiastical curse involving automatic excommunication.
4.A imprecation of divine punishment.
5.A curse; execration.”

Freemasons : An Earth based middle semi-public hierarchy of the religio political elite.This all male theistic cult that segregates other genders, like the above groups of the hierarchy, Is the driving force of resulting the extinction of all life on the planet they reside on, they infiltrated governments, political private organisations such as the CIA,almost all banks that handle the earth currency system and they farm earth citizens as human capital in the primitive Earth society .

Even if they do accept women and men ….. The hermaphrodites (intersexed) like myself would be turned away , and be seen as an abomination.

This evil cult needs evolve or end, and equality brought to the planet.

Jul 05, 2014
Poor Zana
by: Tom

Zana,

Wow.

Just wow.

So many errors, so many misconceptions, so much ignorance that it's hard to know where to start. So much fear, so much hatred that it's problematic whether or not it's worth even trying, but let's try.

1. Women are *not* 'anathema' to Masons. How very silly. They are not admitted into our meetings, true, but that's light-years away from anathema. But let's see a source for your claim, please.

2. Women are not *cursed* to eternal damnation by Freemasonry. What nightmarish site have you been reading? That's more than just silly, the thought itself is nauseating.

3. A formal curse and excommunication? We don't do curses and excommunication is not one of ours. We're not a religion; how could we possibly excommunicate somebody? We are here to try to improve out members; curses are unheard of. Where did you see this - a reference, please?

4 and 5 don't even make sense.

Zana, somebody has been feeding you hate-filled lies. Instead of seeking out bile, rumour and gossip, step back and do some objective research. Think for yourself.




Jul 05, 2014
Zana Elohim Life Form
by: Anonymous

Fremasons call women anathema :;
: loading data recall on public data :

the concept of women becoming Masons is, for all intents and purposes, an anathema.

http://www.masonicinfo.com/women.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki
/Freemasonry_and_women
http://www.masonforum.com/viewthread
/1930/#14396
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id
=qYxCAQAAQBAJ&pg=PT125&lpg=PT125&dq=anathema
+women+freemason&source=bl&ots=9tzyUI-2s4
&sig=4B0U-EVtZAV0GOKcHjNe52HKOII&hl=en&sa
=X&ei=2n64U_7xOaeS7AaMiIHoBw&ved=0CC0Q6AEwATgK
#v=onepage&q=anathema%20women%20freemason&f=false
data overflows, text truncated….
"you should get the idea" as response for human understanding

Information not lies
Freemasons are killing the planet, freemasons hate women, gender inequality causing humanity unbalance to humanity self destruction within 21 years.
Fraternity is fascism and human segregation together with financial apartheid and gender discrimination.
Noted rejection and coverup
Freemasonary is dangerous cult/religion…
reason -> belief in supreme being.

Freemasonary needs to be terminated to save the planet.

Jul 05, 2014
Zana's conclusion
by: Anonymous

Freemasons have made planet Earth into a nightmare of death, pollution and money slavery and do not register their crimes against humanity.

Complete extermination of freemasonry is eminent for the survival of life on planet Earth… , else life faces extinction within the next 21 years.

Jul 05, 2014
Strike Three
by: Anonymous

Oh, Zana. Dear me.

So I look at the links you provide. The Masonic info site says, "... the concept of women becoming Masons is, for all intents and purposes, an anathema." It does not - as you claim - say that Masons view *women* as anathema. That's a major difference - Strike One.

Nothing in the Wikipedia article you cite says anything lke what you claim, either. Strike Two.

Nor does the forum, your third reference.

And that's Strike Three. All you have done is make a bunch of very silly accusations, ones for which you have shown no proof whatever.

Literacy is our friend, Zana.




Jul 05, 2014
you deny any evidence
by: Anonymous

The problem you caused this planet with sexism is not a baseball game, you dismiss any oposing truth ... to cover your damages to peoples lives and get away with murder... you sexist testosterone scum....

Jul 05, 2014
Yawn
by: Anonymous

And *that*, boys and girls, is what the Anti-Masonc claque calls rational, enlightened discourse, their messianic contribution to the enlightenment of the world.

Thanks for coming out.

Jul 05, 2014
response to your guilty dismissal
by: Anonymous

A planet without men.

Dont I wish I lived on a planet where men dont exist,
Equality hardly exists in this planet of males and females
Hermaphrodites and Androgynes are asumed to be a myth
Yet so many earthlings believe that a god is not a myth
Transsexuals and transgenders are frowned on,
Conservatives consider the small and big changes an abomination.
In some places even women are put down not alone by segregation.

Men dominate the planet, together with their invention,
The oldest mind manipulation called religion
The religio political leaders that made this planet a prison
Are all males, who abuse little children.
From the the highest levels that no one can name their positions
Down the authoritarian pyramid of political theism to the free masons
All male totalarian testosterone penis brain driven bunch of scum,
Raping mother earth until she bleeds into the stars, cutting her open.

Will mankind, yes, man kind, kill mother earth, with nukes ?
Sprawling her insides into the moon in full glare of the sun ?

If only this planet had no men, men as such, this man kind
The inhumane insane human, burning babies on giant owl statues
Molesting boys in churches, marrying little girls in mosques...
Making millions of money from civil and world wars they caused.

I wish I lived on a planet that had no men, especially this man kind.
If there were no men, such as these , we would be exploring galaxies by now.

Jul 14, 2014
Great Poetry !
by: Hemp Woman

Is that your poem Zana ? If so, you are a talented writer. Given the content, this sounds crazy, but I find it strangely beautiful. I don't agree with everything you have said but I have come to understand the "money slavery" that goes on in this world. I do not believe that every man in freemasonry is a good man trying to be better. I do believe that everyone who cooperates with the "money slavery", more is better striving, myself included, shares the blame for the survival of that system.

Jul 27, 2014
Outdated
by: Anonymous

From all the comments I concluded that Freemansory is no longer what it used to be, it is an outdated institution that can only continue to exist but downgraded to be just a fraternity, a community of men to support each other to better themselves.
No longer it is the exclusive place to discuss, practice and learn about the power of the mind and achieve a higher level of spirituality, since that knowledge and espiritual principles are no longer kept secret and are available to all to practice, including women, outside of freemansonry. I think women would get really bored if they joined the masons. It is no longer what it was...

Jul 27, 2014
Spoken from Ignorance
by: Tom

"From all the comments I concluded that Freemansory is no longer wha it used to be; it is an outdated institution... No longer it is the exclusive place to discuss, practice and learn about the power of the mind and achieve a higher level of spirituality..."

Which comments would those be? Looking at them, they can be broken down into about five types:

First, those actually asking questions. Good for them; they are trying to learn, but they do not know about Freemasonry. That's why they are asking.

Second, non-members offended by the men-only nature of Freemasonry. Whether their opinions are right or wrong, they have little idea what goes on inside.

Third, women claiming to be in a relationship of one sort or another with a Mason - some pro, some con. Ditto.

Fourth, the seriously misandrous, willing to believe anything, no matter how irrational or unsubstantiated, so long as it reinforces their twisted view of the world.

Lastly, Masons, the only ones who actually know the true nature of the Craft.

Which group of comments leads you to believe that it's outdated, no longer a place to develop?

Jul 27, 2014
reply
by: Zana Elohim Life Form

Thanks, Hemp Woman, well I have found poetry has more of an impact than wordy rant, since it colours the words and reflects meanings with emotion, almost like telepathy. Well I personally do not make the money system first priority in life, because life is more important, and money is a delusion , just as much as theism is.

Then my reply to Tom's "non-members offended by the men-only nature of Freemasonry. Whether their opinions are right or wrong, they have little idea what goes on inside."

You are terribly mistaken, especially those that are naturally not born to conform the gender binary, since we have experienced life living as both genders at one time before we realised its nothing but segregation and fascism, where the truth is you are a sentient being regardless what exists in between your legs.

Jul 27, 2014
Topic
by: Anonymoustom

Sentience is indeed in the brain, not the genitalia. XX or XY make no difference.

Aaaand,,, so what?

The issue which was being discussed in the post you are commenting on was whether or not - based on all the previous comments on this thread - Freemasonry is still relevant today, something more than a mere social club. My comments had nothing whatever to do with sexual orientation, relative intelligence, etc, so it's curious you felt compelled to drag that in.

My point, which I cannot think how to make any clearer in English, was that most of the commenters did not - could not - have the knowledge to make their comments relevant or valid.

As a man, I would not presume to tell as woman about the experience of childbirth as it is something I cannot possibly have experienced. Similarly, non-Masons (of whatever sex or orientation) have not the experience to pontificate on whether or not a man can benefit from Masonry.

Perhaps we could try to stay on-topic...

Jul 27, 2014
zana
by: Anonymous

your the one thats deviating the comment, and masonry is gender fascist, thats my conclusion, like it or not, its the truth, and because they are involved in banks and private corporations and government, they have screwed people more than helped, as well they have prevented progress, such as the example of Nikola Tesla and GP Morgan.

Jul 27, 2014
Loony rants don't impress anyone
by: AnonymousTom

Honestly, Zana, do you practise in the mirror so you can say this stuff with a straight face? That you dislike men as a group is clear enough; it's a free country, so that's your right. And you are ticked off that we're a fraternity as opposed to an all-sex group like the Girl Scouts. Well, that's your privilege, too.

But when you start dredging into third-rate tin-foil hat websites to find 'evidence' of how wicked and powerful Freemasonry is, you're just making yourself look silly. You shown not a shred of proof for such foolishness (gentle hint, links to general Wikipedia pages don't count as proof).

Oh, second hint, if you are going to try to present loony-tune claims as anti-Masonic fact, at least try to get the the craziness right. The TFH claim about Tesla involves a financier named JP Morgan, not GP Morgan.

You can prove me wrong with a rational discussion. Obscene rants lose points.

Jul 27, 2014
so now I am loony ?wtf
by: Zana Elohim Life Form

Now you why I preferred to express myself in poetry, soon as I am talking about it normally I get called loony , stupid, etc… The same old lame technique to dismiss the obvious and burry it especially by members of the male gender, hoping it would never stick out again. But hell you can't call the story of Tesla and Morgan as being bogus, it is so obvious and precise like how shit sticks to a carpet. The more you tell someone they are stupid from what they learned from observing the corners of society that hey have been tossed in by rejection, the more crap you going to get from people in the future, because people nowadays prefer transparency and openness and truth.

Jul 31, 2014
The whole world is so not watching
by: AnonymousTom

"Now you why I preferred to express myself in poetry, soon as I am talking about it normally I get called loony , stupid, etc."

Sweetie, your reality check has bounced...

If you are worried that people might think you are loony, Zana, taking irrational, misandrous prose and turning it into irrational, misandrous doggerel is not going to make much difference. Content counts, Zana - bizarre, hate-filled content remains bizarre and hate-filled regardless of format and instantly registers as Weird for normal people.

If you are worried about being thought of as a loony, consider that most normal people don't call themselves - even as a web handle - things like Lucy Gumdrop Alien Livingbeing. People can of course call themselves anything they want, but in the real world, that kind of Weird is going to make other people not take them - or their views - very seriously.

And if you're worried about being thought of as a loony, normal people wanting to be taken seriously either stay away from moonbat-crazy conspiracy theories or - at least - are prepared to participate in a lucid, polite, mature discussion and provide solid evidence supporting their statements and claims. That's *evidence*, Zana, not shrill epithets and whinging about how bad everybody is treating you.

Not one thing you have said has been backed by evidence. Opinions, Zana, are not the same as facts and all you have presented so far are claims, opinions, biases, fears and nightmares. Crying, "Is too! Is too!" won't change that, either.

If you're worried about being thought of as a loony, here's another hint. Normal people, ones wanting to be taken seriously, when challenged to show some evidence for their statements, don't try to dodge rational, mature discussion by exploding into gutter language, kindergarten name-calling and profane insults. Such behaviour just makes normal people discount both speaker and content.

And, frankly, if you're really worried about what other people think about you, it might not be the best choice to go on and on and on about your gender issues. While I (and no doubt all here) hope very much that you eventually find happiness, peace and contentment wherever your journey leads you, endless banging on that particular drum anywhere but a forum dedicated to gender issues cannot fail to make normal people consider you a flake. No doubt the world's been tough on you, but it's time to shed the comfy cloak of victimhood and get on with life. To be more clear, sorry to break it to you, but this is a forum about a men's group, not a soapbox from which to proclaim your insecurities. Even more bluntly, nobody here really wants to have to be bombarded with your problems, Zana. That's not why they are here. And this thread is about whether or not women should be allowed to join, not about how badly you feel you have been oppressed by half the human race.

Bottom line is that if somebody is worried about normal people viewing them as unstable, hate-filled squirrel-bait, they need to take an serious, objective look at how they are presenting themselves to the world.Reality may bite, but it's still reality and to date, Zana, you've just reinforced what you don't want.

Done with this.








Jul 31, 2014
last words
by: Zana

First off, what is normal ? Something that has to be conformed into box ?

being born intersexed is not considered normal on this planet, guess what ? never experienced normal, imagined it to be boring.

No one's life is the same as the other ? Or is it ?

One always dismisses an objective of corruption , to discredit given evidence as conspiracy to silence them and continue committing crimes against humanity.

The thing is you have cremated your care and you are burning your planet. The sooner you realize that the better.
You accuse me of hate when you hate me as an individual quite explicitly, I just dislike this organization, its sexism and its crimes against humanity and the destruction of this planet it has caused. There is no doubt about that fact, hiding the truth wont save you from your extinction.

Aug 17, 2014
Unthreatened
by: A Sane Woman

I am a woman investigating Freemasonry and I stumbled through the web to this site. I've tried to avoid the anti-Masonic sites that are motivated by hate and ill-will but unfortunately, I found quite a lot of it anyway in the previous comments.

I don't understand why women are so threatened by a group of men. I am secure enough in my womanhood to not need to tear down a man for simply being different than me. Oh, how I appreciate and embrace the differences!

I have a great respect for good men of the Masonic Order. I have known a few in my life thus far that are a credit to the organization. I do not feel slighted for not being allowed to join their ranks any more than I resent a bird for my lack of wings. I am grateful than there are organizations like OES that may allow me to participate if I so choose to petition for membership.

I applaud the civility of Tim in his responses to comments I feel are irrationally hostile.

I've never understood why some people, even children, seem to believe that in tearing down others, you somehow promote yourself or your ideals. If anything, the responses from ignorant, hateful and over dramatic women on this page make me cringe in consideration of my gender.

From what I know, a good Mason is a good man. I'm all for any organization that encourages honor, integrity and good character, even if they prohibit membership based on gender but don't sell those lovely thin mint cookies.

Aug 17, 2014
response to the "sane" woman
by: Anonymous

Well you never experienced abuse and inflicted trauma by this all male cult in your life time

Aug 17, 2014
Thank you "A Sane Woman"
by: Tim

Dear Sane Woman,

I just wanted to say thank you for your comment. I have come to cringe when I see that a comment has been posted to this page because I generally find it contains the kind of negativity that you mention in your post. Your comment, however, has made my day. Thank God for sane women, and may more of your kind follow in your footsteps of stumbling through the Web.

Best of luck with your research.

Aug 18, 2014
God does not exist
by: Anonymous

an atheist mind is like a Mac , and a theist's mind is like a Windows PC…when confronting religion/belief in a God which is the malware. 

Aug 18, 2014
Response
by: Sane Woman

Anonymous, perhaps you might consider that I've had horrible experiences with dishonorable men of several factions, organizations and religions but I've chosen not to stereotype all men because of the actions of those who hurt me.

My choice of how I proceed in my life and judgements are my own and do not depend on those who have wronged me. I am in control of my life and I refuse to have hatred or bitterness be my motivating ambitions, no matter my pain.

Guess what? You have that same power! I highly recommend it. It is a peaceful, happy way to live in tumultuous times.

Tim, you are most welcome. Thank you for taking the hits these questions seem to bring for the sake of educating those who seek knowledge.

Aug 18, 2014
I don't think your abuse was life threatening
by: Anonymous

Exposing the wrong doings and crimes against humanity by this organisation is not considered hatred… Yes I have been hurt and abused by religious organisations and include freemasons in my existence on this planet. Then about men, i don't know if you have been raped, and physically beaten.
The thing is they could have at least have the decency to apologise instead of covering it all up and denying things so that they can improve matters in the future and make life liveable for all and not their secret society only and eradicate.
The problem is religion, belief, secrecy, policy, and theism thats the cause of all the pain and suffering on this planet.

Sep 15, 2014
They're guilty - just 'cause I say so!
by: Thane

"Exposing the wrong doing [sic] and crimes against humanity by this organization is not considered hatred..."

Hmm. "Crimes against humanity," is a very loaded term. It first surfaced at Nuremberg during the Nazi war crimes trials. Of late, it is said to consist of a systematic behaviour by a group consisting of things like mass murder, extermination, enslavement, ethnic cleansing, torture, sexual slavery, forced pregnancy, forced sterilization, torture, enforced disappearance of persons, apartheid and so forth.

Have individual Masons been murders, rapists, etc? Freemasonry is comprised of human beings and it would seem exceptionally unlikely that that were not so.

It is a major leap from that to saying that Freemasonry as a whole, as an organized group, is guilty of such things. Indeed, you offer not a shred of evidence, much less proof, to support such a claim. (That you personally were ill-treated, even treated in a criminal fashion, falls far, far short of linking the entire fraternity to such events, much less to a systematic group-wide criminal behaviour.)

Yet you still demand that Freemasonry as a group admit to things you have no evidence for. Elliot Rodger, a student, killed six people in Isla Vista last May. Should all students around the world accept responsibility for that horrible event? Don't deny it, please - denial is one of the sins of Freemasonry, according to you.


Sep 15, 2014
Crimes against humanity
by: Anonymous

Yes masons have done crimes against humanity, as I have mentioned in my poem. Even the masons were involved in the establishment of the nazi party in germany, including the causation of politics that inflicted the following "mass murder, extermination, enslavement, ethnic cleansing, torture, sexual slavery, forced pregnancy, forced sterilization, torture, enforced disappearance of persons, apartheid ".

The evidence is all around you, under your nose, if you would care to look and see. Seriously my life is pain and suffering caused by them. I call masons religio political elite, because thats what describes them well. The thing is when you talk about them, they never leave you alone, and they manipulate councils and corporations to make your life more miserable and traumatic than what it is. I wish they would stop and leave me alone.

Actually an apology would do, and its the only thing I would need to forgive this corrupt and insane organisation, but it does not and demands evidence when the evidence is ignored.

I wish you all would leave me in peace…. and work on making the planet a better place rather than continuing making it a misery for everyone, and to stop the gender discrimination….





Sep 15, 2014
Oh, dear.
by: Thane

If you want to left in peace WRT Freemasonry, Zana, maybe it would be best for you to stop hanging around a clearly-labeled Masonic forum and accusing them of nasty deeds. Guaranteed cure, absolutely certain to work - just go away. Not one person here will every bother you again - just go away. So simple.

As to your claims and delusions - and such they are until you show some proof - you have real sympathy. The burden of proof however still lies with person making a claim; saying, "the evidence is there, go find it for yourself" would lose a public school Debate Club contest. It's up to you to prove it. Is now, always will be.

Nov 20, 2014
Easy, allow REGULAR masonry all female lodges!
by: Anonymous

Wouldn't the simple answer to this be:

Create all women Lodges, which are RECOGNIZED as 'regular' but that only women attend.

This would ensure that women learn the SAME esoteric 'secrets' taught to the men about their spiritual nature.

Eastern Star is not a substitute as it's co-ed and the same knowledge is not imparted there.

Have women freemasons, with their own lodges, but inititally the men would have to cooperate in imparting the correct knowledge so that its ensured that they will follow the same exact rituals and teachings. Once established, men would go to their lodges, and women to theirs, and both would recognize each other as TRUE Masons.

Right now, there are co-masonic lodges, and while they follow the same teachings as regular masonry, they are not 'recognized' (so they are ostracized as not being the 'real thing' even though they are following the same teachings and rituals)

The asnwer is to establish regular women's freemasonry, where they will be respected as real masons by the men of 'regular' masonry, and by keeping the lodges separate it will satisfy the desire for women to not be in th men's lodges.


Nov 20, 2014
Beating a dead horse Thane
by: Anonymous

I guese you don't understand that I have PTSD through discrimination in the past years experienced by religious, theistic folk including freemasons on the basis of being born intersexed...

My life is proof... take it or leave it... yeah I have had my say, and I am glad to see there is some discussion about including women... flshing gender segregation and discrimination down the toilet.

Dec 30, 2014
Freemasons are disgusting sexists
by: Anonymous

Women aren't allowed in freemasonry because upper level freemasons are told that everything in nature is unequal. (Freemasons allegedly worship "nature"). Freemasons are told that races are unequal, the sexes are unequal, and to embrace these differences. The upper levels encourage abusing wives and treating them like doormats because after all, some men are "protons" and others are electrons meant to revolve around them -- just like in nature. They're taught that men are rational and logical while women are emotional; because the brain is dualistic, and men are left brain dominant. (funny how I seemed to exceed in upper level math and physics classes in college despite missing a dick). They're taught that we're all part of a beehive with a hierarchy, and that they should all revolve around the queen bee. The upper levels are encouraged not to marry because women suck the life-force out of them. Because they would rather be creators/builders than breeders.

Tradition have stuck. Women had no capacity to own property or make contracts back in the 1850s when Eastern Star was created. So they needed a male (or male relationship) to validate their contracts. Hence the reason women need a masonic male relationship to join Eastern STar and take an oath. If you read the old Eastern Star oath, it was only meant for a wife or daughter to take it. And it made them swear to keep their HUSBAND's secrets quiet LOL Because the only information they were expected to learn was via their male relationship. Seems like a bargain with no legal consideration or exchange of value - the woman was supposed to keep secret in exchange for nothing in return. At least in the freemason's case, he vows to keep quiet in exchange for learning the hidden secrets and mysteries of freemasonry.

Also, co-masonry was all started by theosophists like Annie Besant. Basically co-masonry makes women take a pretend-oath, and the only "secrets" they learn are new age ones, since that's what theosophy is - it's a church of the new age. The problem is, since there's all these loser-organizations like co-masonry and Eastern Star still around, women kinda settle for these substandard groups instead of just reverse-engineering what makes the masons special and creating something of their own that treats them with dignity. I cannot believe how women can stand babysitting for their husbands for 6 hours a day so they can attend a club that excludes them and teaches them disgusting sexist ideas!

Anyway, freemasons are just the illuminati's pawns. The funny thing is, most illuminatis are 'born' into it. Thus, the illuminati is half male and half female by definition. It is funny because I can sometimes identify my local illuminatis by the funny small differences in the way they talk and the freemasons/eastern stars by bumper stickers, tattoos, handshakes done in the open, and who-always-talks-to-who. Half the time, the freemasons are clueless as to who the illuminati are. They act snobby towards illuminati women who give their upper ranks orders anonymously.

Oh jeez - one more thing LOLOL I absolutely cannot STAND how the Eastern Stars talk about how their men just need their 'guy time' and they have masonry while women have Star. Stupid stupid stupid stupid. These women need to be publicly embarrassed. Their attitudes hold women back more than men. IN fact, men are preventing women from creating their own club at all. It's all in womens heads collectively. Women need to wake up, grow the eff up, get with it, and create their own powerful groups and stop putting up with this BS.

Dec 31, 2014
I agree with said comment
by: Anonymous

I personally agree with said comment...

Dec 31, 2014
Is there a Masonic crap repository?
by: Tim

Isn't in amazing how someone with absolutely no actual knowledge on a topic can sound knowledgeable simply by speaking with authority. Do you just make this stuff up or is there a repository of this sort of crap somewhere? Let's see, where to start:

"Women aren't allowed in freemasonry because upper level freemasons are told that everything in nature is unequal."
Not true.

"(Freemasons allegedly worship "nature")." Not true.

"Freemasons are told that races are unequal" Not true.

"the sexes are unequal," Not true.

"The upper levels encourage abusing wives and treating them like doormats" Not true.

"some men are "protons" and others are electrons meant to revolve around them" Not true.

"They're taught that men are rational and logical while women are emotional;" Freemasonry does not teach this, but you're kind of making the point.

"(funny how I seemed to exceed in upper level math and physics classes in college despite missing a dick)" Congratulations?

"They're taught that we're all part of a beehive with a hierarchy," The beehive is used as a symbol but it has nothing to do with a hierarchy. It has to do with being industrious and making oneself useful.

"The upper levels are encouraged not to marry because women suck the life-force out of them. Because they would rather be creators/builders than breeders." Ridiculous and not true.

"Tradition have stuck. Women had no capacity to own property or make contracts back in the 1850s when Eastern Star was created. So they needed a male (or male relationship) to validate their contracts. Hence the reason women need a masonic male relationship to join Eastern Star and take an oath. If you read the old Eastern Star oath, it was only meant for a wife or daughter to take it. And it made them swear to keep their HUSBAND's secrets quiet LOL Because the only information they were expected to learn was via their male relationship. Seems like a bargain with no legal consideration or exchange of value - the woman was supposed to keep secret in exchange for nothing in return. At least in the freemason's case, he vows to keep quiet in exchange for learning the hidden secrets and mysteries of freemasonry."
All not true. The Order of the Eastern Star was first envisioned and later created by Dr. Rob Morris. He believed that the good of Freemasonry should not be confined only to the men, but should be shared by the whole family. It had absolutely nothing to do with contracts, legality or the ability to make and keep a promise.

"Also, co-masonry was all started by theosophists" yada, yada, yada.
I will not assume to speak on Co-Masonry as I am not a member of a Co-Masonic lodge. And, from your comments I'm guessing neither are you. I will say, however, that the Ladies of the Eastern Star, those who actually engage in its teachings and take them to heart are not settling for anything.

"Anyway, freemasons are just the illuminati's pawns. The funny thing is, most illuminatis are 'born' into it. Thus, the illuminati is half male and half female by definition. It is funny because I can sometimes identify my local illuminatis by the funny small differences in the way they talk and the freemasons/eastern stars by bumper stickers, tattoos, handshakes done in the open, and who-always-talks-to-who. Half the time, the freemasons are clueless as to who the illuminati are. They act snobby towards illuminati women who give their upper ranks orders anonymously."
So, now you're an expert on the Illuminati, as well? Another organization that you have no firsthand knowledge of? Impressive. And, you can spot them on the street? That is truly impressive. Is it the "hook-'em-horns" hand sign that gives them away? I imagine they'd be interested to know that the centuries they've spent perfecting the ability to go undetected in society have all been for naught.

"Women need to wake up, grow the eff up, get with it, and create their own powerful groups" Couldn't agree more.

Jan 01, 2015
Really
by: Anonymous

It seems that the Freemason argument is just so...an argument. Personally, I think we should abolish the organization...it's archaic and irrelevant. If it were relevant it would be holding to its ideals and be 'non discriminatory' in every sense. All members need to rethink its value in society today. What value does it add at the end of the day? The only way to measure its value is a joint review by men and women of the world over. And that's not allowed.

Jan 03, 2015
Let's get out of the stone age!!
by: Anonymous

So Tim denied my entire comment LOL stating: 'Isn't in amazing how someone with absolutely no actual knowledge on a topic can sound knowledgeable simply by speaking with authority. ' Tim, seriously, everything's out in the open. Nothing's really secret these days. Someone who independently reads the internet, thinks, and observes their environment will be 100% more knowledgeable today than someone who joins an organization and blindly waits for a new spoonfed- belief-system. You can read about how masonic men are told the 'secret' that men are more logical because the brain's dualistic and men allegedly use the left side of it more. The masonic curriculum is standard across the US. In actuality, it's pretty disgusting that freemasons would ask their wives to cook for the lodge or abandon them with the kids for 9 hours on a Saturday so they can listen to 'pieces of architecture' about how women are stupider than men. Just read the damn comments in this comment section. You can see two comments by men who say they're soooooo much more rational than females. Hmmm... where did they get those ideas? LOL These freemasons are disgusting and ungrateful.

I'll clue some of you old folks into a big secret: with the advent of the internet, you can learn the 'secrets' of almost any organization. For example, you can learn that the 11th degree of Ordo Templi Orientis is "anal" LOL. So Tim, YOU would say I have NO knowledge of Ordo Templi because I'm not a member, yet, all it takes for me to figure out an organization is being invited to a function once, reading about it, and observing their members. Some people had to serve OTO for YEARS to find out the 11th 'secret' LOL Or take scientology. I've never been to a church of scientology 'audit', but I've read the cliff notes to their degree system and know about their 8 "secret" levels.

So personally I would never in my life support my husband being a freemason nor join Eastern Star, because Eastern Star does not recognize women as full individuals. Eastern Star will not let you take an oath independently without verifying that you have a male-masonic-relationship because this man theoretically needs to validate your oath, and Eastern Star doesn't let women meet independently of men. I became a co-mason but learned that co-masons are in new-age-world. I personally recommend women trying several routes: One, change co-masonry. Join them and educate them on the difference between real masonic concepts and "new age bullshit". Mark Passio videos are a great place to start to understand the stupidity of the new age belief system. Or, just create a masonic group from scratch that uses a standard Scottish Rite ritual instead of these french 'occult' rituals, and re-create the inner curriculum of a masonic society (minus the chauvinistic part) if you're interested in it. For a quicker individual route, I recommend either the Church of Satan or Witchcraft if you want to network with people. Check out this video showing the striking similarities between freemasonry and witchcraft. However, one difference between witchcraft and freemasonry is that women are considered superior in witchcraft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7Fd4zUClaw

Women learn much more when they ditch Eastern Star and their masonic husbands. I hate to see women investing so many hours in supporting their local lodges and memorizing Eastern Star rituals when they're just being used like doormats and ridiculed behind closed doors. Things will change faster if women stop supporting lodges that create chauvinists and are vocal about it. Women can educate themselves, join a few different established esoteric organizations that treat them with dignity, and create new esoteric organizations better adapted to the new times. Let's get out of the stone age!!

Jan 03, 2015
Too bad
by: Lant

So much ignorance, so much hatred. So sad.

Jan 04, 2015
Sexism in Modern times is sad
by: Anonymous

I would say gender segregation in this day and age is just nausiating... primitive and complete bananas.

Hard to imagine this planet looks so beautifull from orbit, an contains the worst rubbish in the galaxy at ground level, until you get to live here and experience life as someone living on this planet.

The BS in politics, borders, boundaries , countries , antiquated ways of obtaining energy that pollute the atmosphere, land and sea...

Emphasised and dominated by male only groups such as these....

You know , I hate living on this planet.... every time a visitor is interested... I tell them its not worth the value of curiosity.
The only problem is, they can fly and leave... I am stuck here, since I am integrated with your biology.

Jan 05, 2015
get over it
by: Traveler

I will say it again, Freemasonry does not need to defend itself, or explain itself to people who don't understand it. We have been around for a long time and we are under no obligation to bow to the pop-culture, feminists demands of a Hollywood obsessed culture. We meet in our lodges, do our degree work and mind our own business, and we don't particularly care whether some crack-pot hippie who thinks she has us figured out approves of us or not. Isn't there some war somewhere for you to protest?

Jan 05, 2015
to Traveler
by: Anonymous

"I will say it again, Freemasonry does not need to defend itself, or explain itself to people who don't understand it. We have been around for a long time and we are under no obligation to bow to the pop-culture, feminists demands of a Hollywood obsessed culture. We meet in our lodges, do our degree work and mind our own business, and we don't particularly care whether some crack-pot hippie who thinks she has us figured out approves of us or not. Isn't there some war somewhere for you to protest?"

First of all, I do understand freemasonry. If you cannot see this, then you are obviously a mere porch mason. No one has an obligation to defend themselves to anyone. However, as a practical matter, in order to survive, an organization will need a decent public image and be adapted to the times, or people will not join it anymore. Freemason wives will not support their husbands if they realize their husbands are indoctrinated into sexist bullshit behind closed doors. There will be no more Eastern Star members once they realize they are treated as half-people who aren't clued into anything. I am in the process of exposing women to real masonic knowledge so that women will know more - faster than all the old stodgy chauvinists waiting to be spoon-fed. I'm not waiting around for these half-wits to agree with me or give me permission. I'm just letting them know that their days are numbered.

They have "white man's disease". They think they deserve special treatment simply because their white males who have clocked in a lot of years at their lodge, yet times have changed so that everyone should have access to the hidden secrets and mysteries upon showing merit and/or exercising a little individual initiative.

Freemasons do not merely meet in lodges, do degree work, and mind their own business. Freemasons have INVOLVED the rest of the world in their acts. Since women are now much more affected and/or enslaved by masonic policies hashed out behind closed doors, it IS their business! And they should mind it!

Finally, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with pop culture or Hollywood or hippies. These are interesting emotional-word associations to distract us from any logical debate. If I was obsessed with frivolous distractions like those of pop culture, I obviously would not be commenting here.

Isn't it interesting that 'feminism' is a bad word in masonic-world?? Tell me in a rational way - why is that? Is it because you're afraid women will step ahead of you in the special favors line? That's what's most upsetting - that freemasonry used to be about enlightenment, bettering yourself, learning the esoteric sciences, morality, occult or natural law, etc. Now it's become a mundane club filled with prejudices and obsession with favors. The only reasons for excluding women are unstated - that there would be more competition in the special favors line. While freemasons used to be considered "the guardians of nature", they are now "the guardians of corrupt favors".

The current situation of freemasonry is backwards. Membership numbers are dwindling for good reason - because it is in desperate need of change. The degree system of the future will reward those with spirit, merit, and the guts to get the job done - regardless of sex, gender, or years of mundane blind servitude.

I am currently very hopeful for the future!! These backwards attitudes can only keep back the ones who hold them. I have realized that men aren't the ones preventing women from experiencing the mind-expansive concepts and practice of traditional freemasonry. Its women who believe they need to wait for these men to change for some reason. Or that they need to wait for traditional masonic institutions to change. No one is holding anyone back!! But there is definitely work to be done and room for improvement.

Jan 05, 2015
Masonry owes inhabitants of planet an apology.
by: Anonymous

It is not intended that masonry should defend itself, however it does need to owe the planet an apology for the wrong doings it has created in the past, in order for it to focus on a prosperous future rather than its continuous exploitation of humanity who are not a part of it.

You don't mind your own business, your business has resulted the exploitation of other's lives. The problem is much of the wars had been created by fraternitic cults like this. Men and their little war games. Wars are influenced by those who push the pen and paper and manipulate and extrapolate the currency. Protesting against that, would end all possible wars that could be instigated by men behind closed doors, by men who put currency before the lives of others. If you would label me a hippy, I guess your planet is in a neighbourhood of hippies, who can explore the universe anytime they please... which is real freedom, which your organisation had taken away from the citizens of this planet, for what ?
To suffice the primitive concept of currency,money and fossil fuels ?
You think this planet can go on with this current system?

You really do not understand equality do you ? or even balance. Which is why this planet is unbalanced in many ways.

Before you even jump into assumptions about gender etc.... I am actually a hermaphrodite being... society does not even like that, I am forced to live and sign my documents as either male or female. I chose female... because of obvious reasons, to why I post on this page.

"No one is holding anyone back!!" -: simply not true. Anyone who stands out, and illuminates the darkness, and just stands out of the crowed .... are always pulled down by some people who simply do not get the bigger picture and meaning of life.


Jan 05, 2015
you are a nut
by: Traveler

Sweetheart, how can I put this in language you will understand? I will just keep it simple. We understand you have a paranoid, negative opinion about our fraternity... we just don't care.

Jan 05, 2015
Not caring about people is your problem
by: Anonymous

And simply not caring about anyone is what is exactly wrong with the frat...

Jan 05, 2015
don't care about your opinion
by: Anonymous

I didn't say we didn't care about anyone... we raise millions for charity. I said we didn't care about your opinion, big difference.

Jan 05, 2015
True Freemasonry...
by: Tim

Dear Anonymous,

Regarding "To Traveler" comment above, please, at least, make up a name so we can more easily discern your posts from all the other 'Anonymouses' on here. Thanks.

I applaud your enthusiasm. And, if you want to form a new society and believe you have something worthwhile to offer the world, more power to you. In point of fact I find some of your ideas intriguing.

But, the information you're spreading regarding Freemasonry is false information. Freemasonry does not teach those things you have accused it of. The problem with getting your information regarding Masonry from the Web is that without some temperance it's just a grab-bag of information. Some of it's good and some is pure garbage, and since you've taken an adversarial position toward true Masons you're discrediting a great deal of legitimate knowledge and experience. Believing you understand Freemasonry because you read about it on the Web is like saying you know what it's like to skydive because you read a book about skydiving written by someone who might never have been skydiving.

Does Freemasonry have problems? No. Freemasonry, true Freemasonry, is perfect in its simplicity. It is a simple set of moral teachings that are readily available to anyone with the initiative to discover them. But, thanks to the conspiracy theorists, docudramas, and sensationalistic poop-peddlers the public image of Freemasonry has become one of secrets, lies, cover-ups and corruption. And, the more we try to explain the reality of Freemasonry the more we're accused of trying to conceal even deeper secrets than those already supposedly exposed.

Does the Masonic fraternity have its problems? Undoubtedly. And, there are meetings and private conversations taking place every day all over to world in search of solutions to those problems. But, attacking an institution with false information and leveling false accusations is never a solution. I place my wife, our marriage and family before my Masonic responsibilities, as do all good Freemasons. That is what Freemasonry actually teaches. That lesson is imparted to us upon our very first introduction into the lodge, and any Mason who does otherwise missed it.

Masonic wives and ladies of the Eastern Star have devoted a portion of their lives to Freemasonry. In some cases, such as my dearly beloved and departed Grandmother, they have proudly devoted decades of their lives to Freemasonry. To presume they are too stupid to know the men they're living with is insulting and does them a grave disservice.

Does prejudice exist within the Masonic fraternity? Sure. There are also men and women with every other sort of weakness, flaw and frailty. We all have our baggage. But, Freemasonry does not teach nor encourage these things. We are each individuals with our own leanings and every opinion we have is not rooted in Freemasonry. Blaming societies ills on Freemasonry is like saying the Golden Rule is flawed because people don't follow it.

Finally, there is no "special favors line." Never has been. Freemasons do sometimes choose to do business with other Masons. This is not taught, expected or even encouraged by Freemasonry or the Masonic fraternity. It is their perfectly legitimate right to do business with whomever they choose. Sometimes it's business between friends. Some choose to do so because all Freemasons have promised to deal honestly and fairly in all their dealings. Sometimes Masons do business with other Masons because the fraternal relationship places an even higher expectation of satisfactory results on the outcome.

In closing, I would personally be very interested to hear more of this new society based on hidden secrets, mysteries, and mind-expansive concepts. It sounds fascinating, but it does not sound like true Freemasonry.

All the best and with fraternal regards,

Tim

Jan 05, 2015
Don't try to teach a pig to whistle...
by: Lant

... you'll waste your time and frustrate the pig. (Lazarus Long)

Dear Tim,

You are trying to use facts, common sense and good nature to reason somebody out out of something they were never reasoned into. Take away their sense of grievance and their existance would collapse. Been down this road with he/she and reality matters less than being able to publicly complain about their fantasies; solving one's problems is apparently less important than clinging to them. Challenge them for proof and off they will go on a tangent, complaining of yet another injury. I'd call it trolling but trolls are generally bright enough to not make themselves look infantile. Give it up, sir. The voices speak stronger...


Jan 05, 2015
Oh, but what a wonder...
by: Tim

Dear Lant,

Thanks for the advice, and the laugh. I know you're right and I have to admit it is exhausting sometimes. I guess you'd just have to call me an eternal optimist. I can't help but imagine the wonder of a whistling pig.

Jan 05, 2015
Moving on...
by: Anonymous

Traveler, please go back to worrying about hippies and feminists. I frankly don't care what you think either. In fact, that's been my point all along. I am just trying to get other women reading this forum into the mindset of ditching Eastern Star and understanding why a fraternity that is supposed to make good men better is making their's worse. Lant, you haven't proved anything, and Tim you are wrong . Everyone knows masons are extremely racist and sexist, and there is a reason for this. All the denial and superficial heart-tugging comments about wives and girlfriends will hardly cover up the blatant sexist masonic indoctrination repeatedly displayed on this page alone. Seriously if other females with half a brain read this comment section, it should prove to them why it is necessary to ditch any effort they have made to support their local male lodges! Anyway, I will be a founder of a new comason lodge this year with 6 intelligent men and women of many different esoteric backgrounds. It will be different than the standard run of the mill theosophically-influenced lodge. I am excited about what the future will bring. This debate is honestly pretty tiring because I don't like talking to people with prejudiced closed minds, and it is pointless because it is not preventing me from taking any action to experience legit freemasonry - either people will choose to move towards the future or cling on to the past.

Jan 05, 2015
Traveler is an old fart LOL
by: Karen

LOL I love the hippie feminist war comments. If you supposedly don't care what the feminists think, go back to watching WWII movies. Get off this forum because you're obviously not interested in the topic at hand.

Jan 05, 2015
What's the closest thing to Freemasonry?
by: Karen

So I'm female, and I'm interested in experiencing something like freemasonry. But I do not want to work with a traditional masonic organization because the freemasons I've met all kinda seem over-the-hill and condescending. And I don't want to be ranked lower than male freemasons in my group forever simply because I'm a woman. What do y'all suggest? "Anonymous" - should I really try witchcraft? Does anyone on this forum have experience with joining a coven?

Jan 06, 2015
to Karen: Women already are Freemasons
by: Anonymous

Karen, women are already freemasons. They're just not called freemasons. They're called witches. It all comes from the same source. According to that video link I shared earlier, wicca and freemasonry both require that:

1) Initiates be recommended for membership by other members.
2) Screening of initiates
3) Hoodwinked (Blindfolded) / Spear to Chest
4) Bound by Rope to Magic Circle
5) Kneeling to Worshipful Master (freemasonry) or high priestess (witchcraft)
6) Threats for revealing hidden secrets
7) End ritual with, "So Mote it Be."
8) Hidden Knowledge at the Heart of Ritual
9) Secret Society with membership rolls are secret
10) Ceremonial initiations to pass from one degree to another, including sworn oaths
11) Ceremonial purging and purification of ritual space before commencing any ritual work
12) Secret Passwords and Hand Signs
13) Both work from correspondences between spiritual and physical world

The Wicca oath:

I will ever conceal and never reveal, any arts, parts, or points of the hidden mysteries under no less penalty than that of having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out by its roots, and my body buried in the rough sands of the sea where the tide ebbs and flows twenty four hours a day.

The Freemason Oath

(Obligation and Penalty of an Entered Apprentice Mason:) 'I will ... ever conceal and never reveal, any arts, parts, or points of the hidden mysteries ... under no less penalty than that of having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out by its roots, and my body buried in the rough sands of the sea."

The wiccans have three degrees closely paralleling that of masonry.

Wicca is more involved with the reverence for the Goddess and moon while the freemasonic ritual has more allegories involving the sun. And women are higher in the hierarchy of witchcraft. My recommendation is that if you want to learn real so-called secrets and avoid the constant sexist circle-jerk from male lodges, become a witch. If you want to experience the ancient masonic ritual and learn about masonic symbolism, become a co-freemason. But be aware that for whatever reason, co-freemasonry is not like male freemasonry in the United States at this time because theosophists infiltrated it with their new-age-crap. Its almost like simulated masonry with new age lectures. This can always be changed if enough co-masons insist that it become real-freemasonry rather than pretend-shit.

Jan 06, 2015
Thanks anonymous!
by: Karen

Thanks so much Anonymous for the info! Since I don't want to interrupt anyone's circle jerk, witchcraft might be right for me.

Jan 06, 2015
Dear Karen
by: Traveler

I am not an old fart, I'm 37 years old. My point is that Freemasons shouldn't have to bow to the demands of "pop culture." Just because radical feminists don't approve of us doesn't mean that we should change our traditions. We are under no obligation to satisfy your demands. Also, if either one of you think that Freemasonry has anything to do with Wicca, than you have proven to know nothing about our fraternity. If "anonymous" wants to start her own version of a quasi-masonic organization that lets in women, then why is she bothering us in the first place?

Jan 06, 2015
Labels versus Reality
by: Karen

OK first of all Traveler, I wasn’t asking you the question. Second, this is a forum about women and freemasonry, not about the dangers of pop culture, war protests, hippies, and feminists. My question was, what is the closest thing I can get to experiencing freemasonry without all the male chauvinism that seems to infest today’s lodges? My main choices seem to be witchcraft or co-freemasonry. Whether you call co-freemasonry ‘quasi’ or not really makes no difference to me. You are not the authority, nor is anyone in reality.

An organization doesn’t instantly become ‘regular’ in the eyes of everyone simultaneously. Everyone seems to forget that Prince Hall lodges were not considered ‘regular’ in the northern states until recently. Prince Hall lodges were working under the table with northern ‘regular’ lodges for years before they were officially recognized. And even though Prince Hall lodges in the south are allegedly not ‘regular’ currently, I assure you that they are working together under the table for shared goals as well. What something was called yesterday, today, or in the future is meaningless. What is important is reality. And reality can be shaped and molded and worked towards until manifested. Your initial stamp of approval on organizations or your eventual use of labels will not influence my course of action. Minus the name, what is freemasonry in reality? It seems to consist of esoteric knowledge, secrets, rituals, oaths, allegories, a curriculum of lectures, and a culture of working together for shared goals. Am I more likely to get this experience from a coven, a co-masonry lodge that is actively progressing, or Eastern Star where women seem to be treated as a male appendage and scorned for feminism? I am not concerned with whether a group of stodgy unchanging pigs calls women who pull their own weight financially ‘feminists’, or whether they call people who protest atrocities in wars ‘hippies’. It is not my goal to win their stamp of approval. My goal is to experience something close to freemasonry because I am fascinated with rituals and hidden knowledge. I choose to obtain the same experience minus all the archaic sexism. So thanks again 'Anonymous' for your insight. You have helped me reason through this one.

Jan 06, 2015
Yawn
by: Ponder

One wonders if this new, ever-so-liberated body will maintain a public forum with the same patience for misinformation, bias and (turnaround being inevitable) misogynistic rants...

One thing Traveller has right - Freemasonry has existed for hundreds of years, not by catering to every passing whim nor by heeding the chittering of the envious, the fearful and the deluded, but rather by holding to its original concepts and premises.

The Craft neither needs anyone else's approval nor cares that others may try to imitate its success. We've seen this same sort of hostility surface again and again over the centuries and we've patiently watched it wither away with the same echoing inevitability. That our numbers have started climbing again is sufficient unto itself.

So fill yer boots, princesses. Call it what you want, your imitation's success, failure or even existence are of no concern to Masonry. Your navel-gazing anger and disparagement are equally immaterial. At day's end, neither they - nor, frankly, you - matter enough to worry about. And that has nothing to do with which position the toilet seat gets left; real women have our utmost respect. It's just that we do not bind ourselves to trifles.

Suck it up, buttercups. The whole world is so not watching.

Jan 06, 2015
contradictions
by: Karen

Yawn isn't watching - but is....

Jan 06, 2015
If you don't care, then why are you typing??
by: Trish

I like how 50 guys continue to say - 'I don't care';
OK great!!!! Good for you. GET OFF THIS PAGE!!!! THIS PAGE ISN'T FOR YOU!!!!!! YOU DON'T HAVE ANY REAL THOUGHT TO CONTRIBUTE ANYWAYS!! THE FACT THAT YOU'RE TYPING PROVES YOU WRONG!!

Jan 06, 2015
feeling butterflies
by: Anonymous

what's hilarious is these same masons will join organizations like OTO, witchcraft, Church of Satan, Rosicrucianism, Eastern Star, military intelligence organizations, and do their thing right alongside women. But then they pretend like freemasonry is some special ritual that only men can practice. Women would specifically have to be excluded because men would feel all funny when they're with women in lodge. They would need their time alone... What's up with that??

the funny thing is - a lot of them talk about how men are so much more logical/rational, and that's why women need to be excluded. But they don't DARE use that argument on Prince Hall members as that would be RACIST!!

well whatever, they can say they don't care. they can talk about butterflies and logical/rationality. but the fact is, they have to put in real resources gangstalking or doing damage-control for women who don't shut up and have no reason to without an oath to a legit organization. all the secrets are out in the open for all to see, and lots of people can easily put them together!!

Jan 06, 2015
good one Ponder
by: Traveler

Ponder, that's pretty much what I meant, your post seems much more elegant than mine... LOL!

Jan 07, 2015
eff it y'all have a point LOL
by: Lady Anon

I see the ladies married to upper-degree freemasons colluding in all sorts of neighborhood skits. They are highly snooty and exclusive about the masonic-group thing even though technically they're not even members. They've been taught that selective lying or deceiving is the game, and they know the art of ganging up. They gangstalk like the rest of them and have the power to fix local elections, frivolous beauty pageants or band auditions. They've been exposed to the same info. They're doing all the top secret things like the men. However, they would've never gotten there without the male relationship thing. It's assumed they need to take oaths to hold secrets, but that they've only learned things because of their relationship to their husband or father or whatever.

It's not that the women on the outside can't do it, it's that they haven't done it because there's 50 different sub-standard organizations that kinda divert their attention from getting it.

In my opinion there's a few types of outsider-women:
1. those who want to play pretend-mason. Once they get to be about 90 years old, they earn their fake--33 degree. and they've only achieved their fake degree through an annie-besant influenced society. so they talk about karma and reincarnation, etc. they've been indoctrinated into the new-age curriculum in order to earn their fake degree, they haven't read diddly squat, and so they don't know any better.
2. those that think masonry is merely about fraternity. so just about any masonic organization will do in their case as long as they get together and hang out.
3. these 'atheist' masons overseas or in Colorado who use their masonry club as a Toastmaster club. They go thru the motions of reciting these 18th degree ceremonies referring to Jabalon, but then they think the whole thing's about intellectual debate while posing as a professor. So they want to 'debate' evolution, existentialism, etc. afterwards from their college materialism-indoctrination
4. those who shrug their shoulders and do whatever occult-thing is available. Is the porn society known as OTO the only thing available? then get to blowing some dick.

But y'all have to realize that it's frustrating. I see every conspiracy from a mile away. I'm not a big-protester or whatever, but you know, when you see a magic trick and know exactly what's up their sleeve, why would you want to stay quiet? There's no incentive for me to be quiet. There's no one to talk about it with. I wish I was in on it rather than out of it.

And it makes me laugh when i see the history of freemasonry. Like I saw this lecture about American Indians and freemasonry LOL Basically this is how it worked: The indians had land to steal. So Albert Pike and friends made a few of them masons. The Indian and white masons hacked out deals where the indians would give large chunks of land away in exchange for some shiny mardi gras beads. And soon afterwards, Albert Pike was driving around in a hayriding caravan with 50 whores in the back, paying them all with all his silver bricks he acquired from these deals. And this story is told by bleeding-heart-liberals who can't see-the-story-for-what-it-is. the liberals cite this story as proof that freemasonry is ever-so-racially and sexually inclusive and everyone can do it. Or take the India-indians across seas. Same type of thing: it was the age of imperialism. a few Brits wanted to act like princes and princesses with indians waiting on them hand and foot. they made a few indians freemasons. they hacked out deals behind closed doors. lo and behold, they got the indian government by the balls and were personally fanned in mansions thereafter.

So whatever. I'll soon find out if my new masonic group has any more brain cells firing than the last one. I'm going to chart out the difference between theosophy and masonry out for them mark-passio-style and see if anyone understands. i won't see it happen in this lifetime. but it just kinda pisses me off. The Prince Hallers achieved it, but it was because they never dealt with the masonic-relationship fake-family issue. The masonic wives who are already insiders don't have any real payoff to go against the current order of things. The pressure can only come from outsiders who've had a eureka. I might say 'eff it' and just go full blown satanist. In fact, that's what i might do. as it kinda is a shortcut anyway around the crowd of masons waiting in line for the favors from the stealing club to rain down on them... i'll just become the head stealer and throw a few crumbs to you bitches. whoever has arranged the most spaghetti dinners might get the largest crumbs.

Jan 07, 2015
Who is telling the truth ?
by: Anonymous

The big question is, Who is telling the truth , and who is telling sweet little lies to cover up evidence?

I certainly have looked at information on the opposition and the side of masonry, then statistically balanced the result, in order to find a mean perception to work on while analysing the culture of the people on this planet, observing the exploited and the exploiters.

The large majority of religious, cults, spiritual, and theosophical groups tend to have a primitive perspective on how they fit within the universe in this solar system , on this this planet on the star it orbits on.

Society in general in the vastness of culture, and religion tend to discredit the female gender of your humanity, and often exploit them.

In a society on the verge from having the possibility to evolve into an interstellar does not require the need of secrets and hidden agendas.

In the end the philosophy of masonry is only a perception , because none of them understand life, the universe and everything.
Earth is not at all unique and is assumed its the only home to have life in the universe. Masonry prerequisites the belief in a supreme being, when in fact it does not exist, so perceptions are made.

But like any religious, cult, or club, it does not give them the right to exploit the lives of others, and use the excuse of charities to wash the blood off their hands.

Jan 07, 2015
Ancient imperative...
by: John

Come on guys, there's no mystery here. The girls don't actually want to be Masons. They just want to improve Masonry, to make it what it ought to be, to fix it. After all, that's what girls do with guys and guy things. They fix them. And they keep on fixing them until they're everything they thought they wanted them to be, and then they dump them because they've become boring. Only, in the fixing of the thing everything that once made it unique, interesting or challenging has been removed.

It's not Masonry that interests them. If it were they would read what Masons have written. They'd listen to what Masons say regarding Masonry. They'd ask questions, consider and discuss, rather than attack and accuse without basis. They're just responding to an innate imperative to fix something that, to them, needs fixing.

My neighbor used to have a dog. He loved that dog. His wife and veterinarian kept hounding the poor guy to have his dog fixed, for his own good they said, for his health. Finally, the guy gave in and had the dog fixed. After that, this once energetic and loving dog just laid around growling and licking at what he'd lost. One day the dog stepped out in traffic. My neighbor told me he thought he did it on purpose.

So I have to wonder, girls, what will you do with Masonry once you've got it good and truly fixed?

Jan 07, 2015
How cute...
by: Peter

"... statistically balanced the result in order to find a mean perception to work on while analyzing the culture of the people of this planet..."

Priceless.

Math is Hard, but perception can always be mathematically jaberwocky'd to suit the needed perception.

I'll just stick to my needlepoint pending further Abel Prize wisdom, shall I? Please - do keep it coming; I'll be dining out for weeks on this.

Jan 07, 2015
what is this hermaphrodite shit??
by: Lady Anon

god****it and these are the types of people i'm supposed to join with as an outsider-female. it's like people just want an 'estoeric flavor'; any flavor will do. they just want f***in philosophy poetry club. they somehow think their subjective nonsense will change a f***ing club that runs things. and so since i don't have a husband or daddy-mason, i've got to try to put together a club of my own and educate-from-scratch goddess-worshippers, new agers, atheist people who think they've got allll the answers, costume-satanists who think worshipping satan is about having 50 tattoos and talking about how stupid the establishment is, suck-d**k-OTO clubbers, people who just literally join a group so they can try out their Thespian Club skills and dress up in Renn Faire costumes who know shit about the esoteric.
and then there's the porch-chauvanists who don't even know that women do just as much as men in the club - except they needed a relationship to enter-the-club.
where the F**K is the door marked 'individual females'??????
maybe the door is behind the many-levels of Club Satan or Club Goddess. But how many years do I have to go skyclad leaving wine and flowers for Selene before I meet someone WHO KNOWS THEIR ASS FROM A HOLE IN THE WALL??????? How many levels of the Church of Satan will I have to bypass before we get around this 'we aren't theistic satanists; we're atheistic-satanists, and we don't condone crime ya know; we're just about getting in touch with our primal sides' I want to know the REAL SHIT. Like the crap Mark passio was schooled in. The estoeric isn't about weird feel-good shit. It's an exact science. It's not about toastmaster debates and intellectual speeches about evolution and biology like some of these atheistic-co-masons think it's about. And I don't want poeple who want to debate whether the NWO exists. OF COURSE IT F***ING EXISTS!!!!!! Where is the door that I can enter where idiots are not allowed where I can PARTICIPATE in the NWO instead of debate it and go 'yep huh huh u can't believe the **** on the internet' or 'yep it's bad and stuff'

anyway, honestly if you ask me how i'd change things... I'd god**** update this club tremendously. It's a left hand f***ing path club with a right hand facade people. I'm not about sanitizing that or turning it new age.
But jesus christ first step is abriding the fat ---- no one has time to clock in 50 years of spaghetti dinners and re-reading long-ass pre-written rituals designed to kill time saying..... Robert Moron is beyond his cable tow.... next order of business, tommorrow's after-lodge snack... next order of business, congratulating Joe 90 year old on his passing to the lodge eternal...

Second, it's about merit these days. Not who your daddy was. Not who your daddy's daddy was. Not who your daddy's daddy's daddy was. Not who your daddy's daddy's daddy's step-daddy was. Can you get the job done? Can you read and write in complete sentences? Do you understand that 2+2 = 4 even though the establishment says it's 5? People of merit will get f***ing frustrated as hell if they know all the answers to degree 30, but they're sitting in elementary school for 20 years while the village-idiot's promoted to level 33 because his daddy was a legacy

third - i'd have a regular female co-mason division, a darkie-division, a whitee-division, a mixed sex division, a mixed race division, an all inclusive division, a hermphaphodite division, a lesbo division, a 'females are only half-people and need a man to sign their name, help them thru the obligation, validate all their business, babysit them, catch them when they faint, etc.'; just there are standard rules, but you can contract with whoever 'gets it' according to a merit score. i'd ease out of established bricks-and-mortar because the cat's out of the bag and it makes everyone a target. and ther'es plenty of spy gear the military uses that will soon be in civilian hands making bricks and mortar established-locations stupid. Those are just my two cents by feeling out the future written because John asked. If you're not f***ign interested in what I wrote then F*K U I DON'T GIVE A F**K I REALIZE U HAVE TESTICLES AND I DON'T congrajewf***inglations

Jan 07, 2015
Whew!
by: Jean

Dear gentleperson, it's meds time. Seriously, this is just not a healthy reaction to John's remarks. Actually, I don't think John was even asking anything remotely like that. Truly, get help with those issues. This is not a mental health forum and happiness for you is not going to be found here. God be with you, but get help.

Jan 07, 2015
Language
by: Tim

Lady Anon,

I realize you're passionate about this, but please control your language. I don't want to see you banned from the site.

Thank you.

Jan 07, 2015
safe for the whole family
by: lady anon

sir, i apologize for my passionate language. maybe jean should be reading this with her male masonic relationship to comfort her

Jan 08, 2015
THIS FORUM IS CENSORED
by: Lady ANON

HEY THANKS FOR DELETING MY POSTS!!!! OBVIOUSLY THIS ISN'T A FORUM THAT'S INTERESTED IN INDEPENDENT THOUGHT. GO ALONG WITH YOUR SANITIZED THOUGHTLESS LIVES AND FOLLOW ORDERS FROM THOSE WHO DO ALL THE THINKING FOR YOU.

Jan 08, 2015
Why were Lady Anon's posts deleted?
by: Ray

Lady Anon had multiple great points that were deleted by this forum. There was no need to censor her. Jean was not offering any intellectual value to the topic at hand which was 'women allowed in freemasonry", and Lady Anon rightfully responded accordingly. Why is it that the people with the real intellectual contributions are censored from this forum while the people here who have merely insulted others have their comments left untouched?? This is clearly showing forum-bias towards people who hold certain views.

Jan 08, 2015
My thoughts
by: Jean

Actually, I have all kinds of thoughts about women and and Freemasonry. I don't think you are going to like them, but since you ask so nicely...

First, I have no Masonic relatives. Sorry to burst that bubble, but nobody is leading me around by the nose. I know quite a few Masons, but my opinions are my own. I think one of my grandfathers was one, but he died like 85 years ago when my mother was a little girl, so he's not been much of an influence on me. Nor are any of my female relatives in OES, either. Sorry.

Secondly, I think that Freemasonry is a men's group. Given that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of gyms, cruises, clubs, professional associations and so forth limited strictly to women and given that society doesn't see much harm in that sex-based exclusivity as applied to all of those, I don't find the existence of a boys-only group any reason to get my knickers in a knot. I think I have more important things to worry about.

Nor do I see the existence of a group with membership limited to men as evidence that Masons despise women - not unless you are prepared to agree that members of college sororities, the Women's Chamber of Commerce and the Girl Guides are all man-haters. It's a group for men and I think people should just deal with it - find something more useful to do with their lives than spending them ranting on somebody else's forum.

I've never actually met a Mason who despises women the way it seems you hate them. I think you need to stop objectifying those men. But that's just me thinking.

And I think that going on about somebody else who's minding their own business is jejune. What have they ever done to you personally that you are taking it so seriously?

Next, I think this is a Masonic website, run by Freemasons for discussions about Freemasonry. I think that insisting on dragging in paganism, Wicca and such is not only pointless, but rude. Not that I have anything against such (my sister-in-law is a Wiccan priestess) but my thought is that this isn't the place. Bree started this thread off with a polite question and I think she got a polite response. I also think it's slid a fair ways and I don't think that there's much value added by constant shouting and insults (you've apologized for the profanity, so we'll let that go).

As to, "this hemaphrodite sh*t", as you call it, one of the frequenters of this forum is one such. (S)he is a pretty unhappy person; my thought is that a good woman (you *are* a good woman, aren't you?) should have a little pity, that. Feminine empathy is one way women can shine over men.

Next, I don't think anybody's 'expecting' you to join anybody. The Masons don't ask anybody to belong. If you wanted to belong, fine, but I think that complaining about something that's a) not going to happen to you and b) that you don't want anyway is just silly. You don't want them, and, seeing your opinions, I doubt they'd want you, so why not just give it a rest?

I've got a whole theme park of more thoughts about women and Freemasonry, but that will do for now, I think.

Oh, I do really think - not as an insult, but as real concern - that you need to deal with your anger issues. You're hurting nobody but yourself and doing yourself no good at all. Happiness is possible, really.

Jan 08, 2015
Saying what's never said
by: Ray

Jean, perhaps your medication protocol has helped you, but everyone who holds opinions about a topic that differ from your own does not need to be placed on your prescription plan.

Many issues on this forum have been addressed that would have never been stated in a Lodge-setting, and I think these opinions need to be left uncensored for all to consider. Women have been kept from the full-experience of freemasonry which is often a large part of their heritage, so they often look to replace that experience by joining other organizations that aren't the same - like pagan organizations or OTO. Eastern Star does not offer the same lectures and knowledge-base as a masonic lodge does. And it assumes that all women have a masonic relative. Womens' status and experiences in these masonic organizations often depend on who their male masonic relatives are - not on what they have done for the fraternity individually. And while we all say - whatever - we do not care what women think because it's for the guys - the fact is, if men do not accommodate women's opinions to a certain extent, women will not continue to support their husband's attending Lodge functions.

In Lodge, everyone would naturally like to receive a higher degree, and often this means receiving the approval of those in a leadership position. Issues involving womens are often left un-stated. And lots of one-liners are repeated over-and-over as they receive praise and approval by those in leadership positions. I have heard women say countless times things like "Men need their guy time; Think how much CLEANING I can get done when he's at lodge". or "Men have their freemasonry, and I have Eastern Star". and "Men need their guy time". They are always highly applauded for these views. Those with different views remain silent as expressing them would not help the member's promotion in the group. Thus, many people assume that there's no problem. It is surprising that lodges with African Americans on their membership roles are considered regular, yet there is not a single lodge with full-fledged female-members that is considered regular. Perhaps it's because black men have had their own separate lodges all along, and never had this lodge-culture of stifling certain views while encouraging others.

I personally believe it is fine for men to have their guy club and their guy time. However, what is not acceptable is women being treated like second class citizens by their own organization. The implications of the rules requiring women to find a masonic relative to join and always having to meet in the presence of a man is insulting to many women. Though other women are more passive --- and medicated --- and do not seem to care about this culture of inequality. They shrug their shoulders and say it's because it's a family organization. They do not understand that this mirrors the legal process for validating a contract for one who does not have legal capacity to make one. Black Men in Prince Hall always joined Prince Hall on their own without needing a relationship with a White male-mason to validate their oaths or Lodge business, so they never had to overcome this mental-block in the debate process.

I'm sure there are many women who have had wonderful experiences in Eastern Star or Rainbow Girls. But it does not mean that these experiences cannot be improved by listening to those who have opinions that differ from your own. Insulting people by suggesting a medication protocol is an immature way to stifle healthy intellectual debate.

Jan 08, 2015
Jean what are you doing here?
by: Karen

So Jean, you have no masonic relatives, and you think masonry should be limited to men. What made you read this forum? I'm just curious why you'd kinda stumble upon this forum, have a theme park of thoughts about women and masonry, yet you don't think women should be masons. or pagans... should women take up knitting instead?

Jan 08, 2015
A new light
by: Jean

Dear Ray,

You see, here is the difference. I may not agree with what you are saying, but you are saying it politely and offering something besides childish temper, SHOUTING and profanity. That's how normal people behave, people who want to have their views taken seriously.

Normal people do not explode into gutter-word temper tantrums when people challenge their statements; normal people do not shout all the time - I haven't, you haven't, most of the people here haven't. For somebody to behave that way indicates that they have issues. If that's the way they go through all aspects of life, then it's a serious problem. Such 'Terrible Two's' behaviour does nobody any good - especially the speaker. Objectively, based on how they have presented themselves, they need help and saying so is not an insult. Again, while I may not agree with your point of view, I'm not screaming profanity at you. There's the difference.

Back to your first post, the only post the mods seem to have actually deleted (delete = remove, erase, expunge) was one very short one telling me to perform an anatomical impossibility on myself. No doubt there was a deep message hidden under the hatred, bile and fury, but it would have been hard to find. Such gutter snarls are neither 'healthy' nor 'intellectual', not on any level.

Censorship? Sure - while leaving the insults and SHOUTING!!!! intact, the mods 'beeped' a couple of dozen obscenities from one post alone. Very philosophical, no doubt a loss to English literature and debate, a sin against the Free Spirit, but you know something, hon? It's *their* website.

If they were deleting profanity from *Lady Anon's* blog, then she'd have grounds for legitimate complaint. But this isn't her blog, it's theirs. And she has been posting page after page of invective, rants, cussing and verbal abuse - decrying and insulting Freemasons and their wives on *their* website in ways that would get a toddler's mouth washed out with soap before a long time-out sans teddybear. I think the mods have been unbelievably patient. Most websites would have have hit the banned button long ago.

Lady Anon has not made a case for or against anything. All she has done is post a series of vulgar rants and I'm sorry to have to say that to miscry such as 'philosophical alternative points of view' is as silly as those rants. Let her politely make a case for her opinion and she might get taken seriously. As it is, she's just painted herself into a corner, portraying herself as a rude, aggressive and boorish person whose sole way of expressing herself is screaming potty words. She can do better.


Dear Karen,

Thank you for your question. I'm here because I want to be. That I don't worry about Freemasonry being for men only doesn't invalidate my interest, nor does it give anybody else the right to challenge my participation.

Actually, the better question might be why are some other people here? People who are no longer discussing women-and-Freemasonry but totally unrelated topics like Wicca. (And I did note that I've got nothing against Wicca.) I think though that if people want to discuss Wicca, then they should stop abusing the hospitality of Freemasons (who have clearly shown themselves to be far more patient, far better-mannered than their critics here) and go to forum about Wicca.

Jan 08, 2015
the Stigma of Imitation
by: anonymous

Women should just go ahead and do the freemasonry -- for real -- without waiting around for men. And by me saying 'for real', that don't mean become another new-age-co-mason described above.

I think there's one issue that hasn't been addressed. That is, there's this stigma about imitating people. Men have said several times on this forum that this is THEIR fraternity. and that THEIR fraternity is unrelated to paganism. Nothing could be further from the truth. Freemasonry borrows many rituals, allegories, and symbols from ancient Egyptian mystery schools. And these mystery schools were for male and female initiates. So yes, humankind went through the 'age of patriarchy' as predicted by the mystery schools wherein women were excluded from many esoteric practices. Women had to concentrate on having multiple kids so the human race could survive serious bouts of disease, and the age of patriarchy was centered on protecting women during this period. But that age is over, and women are generally re-including themselves into society in their full capacity. So it's a faulty assumption to say that freemasonry is 100% male-created since so much of it was borrowed from ancient esoteric practices meant for men an women.

There's a stigma about trying to re-create an experience that you are specifically excluded from. There's this stigma in admitting that men have something women do not currently have. There's a stigma to admit you'd like to imitate aspects of 'their' society. There's this idea that you have to ask permission from those who are doing certain things you'd like to do. But perhaps freemasonry is also merely an imitation of something else from ancient history that was created by both men and women. we're all imitators that borrow language, fashion, and culture from those around us.

I think this psychological issue needs to be examined. I think the stigma-of-the-imitator is behind the reason why so many women want to pretend that they're already legit 33 degree masons who have all the same knowledge instead of figuring out what it means to be a freemason in reality. Creating a better masonic society might mean learning and borrowing practices from other people, and that's OK. Prince Hall members got over their stigma of allegedly copying from whitee. And now they essentially enjoy the same knowledge, secrets, and practices without having to join with someone's help. They've made it their own.

I just think women have more mental 'blocks' than black men in just going ahead and creating a legit masonic society that treats them as complete individuals -- i.e., the family-relationship thing, the fact that there's all these other societies that are already there, the stigma of being called a 'feminist', the vicious sexist attacks, lodge culture which stifles them from even thinking through these things. I think it's great that we have this forum where people can talk about these issues anonymously without fear that this discussion will ruin their position in their lodge.

Jan 08, 2015
Stigmas of imitation
by: Tharn

Well, you make an interestng argument.

Having been a Mason for 30+ years on the other hand, I have yet to see anything derived from anything I've ever heard connected with ancient Egyptian mystery schools. No doubt there are some coincidental parallels such as the Christian Eye of Providence using the same symbol as the Egyptian Eye of Horus, but that hardly proves derivation.

Even if it did, the existance of influences from a society dead for thousands of years would hardly be a pass-key to modern Freemasonry.

In any case, it's a free country. Anybody can set up any club or group they want and nobody's going to come after them with torches and pitchforks. Freemasonry has no patent or trademark on the square and compasses nor even on its very name. Anybody can claim anything they want and there's absoutely nothing we could do to stop it, even if we wished to be bothered trying. So carry on. Do whatever you want. Rent a hall, buy some regalia, copy some books (maybe some of them might even be partially accurate). Nobody - nobody - is stopping you.

Just don't expect to be recognized as real Masons. Trying to compel such acknowledgement is one thing that neither they nor you can ever accomplish.

Best of luck - truly.

Jan 08, 2015
Censorship and this site
by: Tim

Lady Anon/Karen/Ray,
as your IP address indicates that you are one and the same I will address you as such.

Silly me. I actually went to bed last night with the foolish notion that you might contact me today to request that your vile rant be removed entirely. I must have had sugar plums dancing in my head.

I redacted the obscenities from your post. I think people are smart enough to fill in the blanks without having to be slapped across the face by your crude language. If you are indeed incapable of expressing yourself without the use of such vulgarities I'd suggest that your time would be better spent elsewhere than on a forum dedicated to the discussion of the philosophy and reality of Freemasonry and the Masonic fraternity. On the up side I left your racial slurs, cruelty, arrogance, hysterics and rudeness intact as they seemed to carry the load of your post.

As to this site and following orders, this is my site. Privately, independently owned and operated for the last 7+ years. The site was built out of a love of Freemasonry and a desire to inform and answer questions about the philosophy and fraternity that I love so well, and the apparently naive belief that if people could come to see Freemasonry as I see it they might also come to love it as I do. I abhor censorship as much as anyone, but I will not allow you or anyone else to drag this site into the gutter. If one of my Masonic Brothers had spoken in the manner that you have continually spoken on this site I would have done much more than edit a post. And, I would expect them to do the same for me.

As misguided as they are, your thoughts, ideas and opinions are welcome here, but only so long as you can control your passions. As that too is one of the teachings of Freemasonry.

Sincerely,

Tim

Jan 08, 2015
OMG you're totally like nancy drew!!
by: Lady Anon

thanks Tim for doing the spy-work freemasons are so well known for doing. I'm sure Jean was some fake persona too because I don't see how a lady who doesn't think women should become freemasons, and who is not related to freemasons, could possibly be a real person who found this blog interesting LOL Imitating my fake-profile-thing was the sincerest form of flattery.

Seriously though- who said what and how - does it really matter??? It's the logic of statements that should count. That's what all these guy freemasons said on top of this comment section. So really there's no reason to get our panties in a wad over a little "dirty" words. You should thank me for the fake drama I put in your life because it was getting a little dry, and no one was offering real new thought about this topic.

And seriously: I was the only one giving a fresh view on the "philosophy and reality of Freemasonry and the Masonic fraternity" because everyone in your club seems to repeat the standard propaganda-line on certain topics. So spare me...


Anyway -- maybe "Jean" can now calm down ---- he/she was kinda obsessing about the silly comments I made after her 8th paragraph LOL I hope the doctor reviews his/her medication protocol she keeps talking about.

I'm glad you're proud of your site. I also have a blog at
http://zombaphobesunite.blogspot.com/
You can fake-persona my blog anytime and crash it and troll it and do whatever. Because I don't care. It's just an effin blog people!! LOLOLOL


Jan 08, 2015
Words...
by: Tim

I'm sorry Lady Anon. I didn't realize you were a child. In retrospect, perhaps I should have. Of course, it's not just an effin blog. Not this one; not yours either. It's words. Words are the symbols we use to express emotion, to convey ideas, to make our argument, to debate the topic, to impress and to sway and to convince, to encourage and injure and apologize. Words have power, power to heal and power to hurt.

The beauty of the Internet is that it enables anyone with something to say to be heard. The ugliness of the Internet is that people have come to believe that because of its seeming anonymity they can say things to other people without consequence, things they would never dream of saying in a face-to-face encounter.

We're all responsible for the energies we loose into the Universe. We're all accountable, in the end, for the things we do to, or do not do for one another. We take too lightly the injuries we do and the injuries done to us through the power of words. These injuries, while not visible and leave no visible scar, can remain with us and influence our actions throughout our lives.

On the other hand, words have the power to lift us up, to inspire us to greater thoughts, to nobler deeds, to higher achievements. These are the words we should be sharing, and if my words during this discussion have harmed you in any way I apologize.

Sincerely,

Tim

Jan 09, 2015
Anthropology
by: Lady Anon

Thanks for your letter Tim. I didn't realize I was a child, but how would I ever mature out of my state unless I was in a lodge under your guidance?

In reality this was truly a study in anthropology.

I went to a couple of freemason seminars where these female professors and female freemasons were trying to convince people that women should be regular freemasons too. The speakers dressed up in suits and gave mainstream logical speeches to a bunch of freemasons. People congratulated the women for their speeches. They kinda sympathized with women who wanted to be included and agreed in theory that it was kinda unfair, but they practically were like - 'it's not going to happen, whatever.'

Generally, people voiced in the art of propaganda know that people are just herd-animals and only listen to the dominant males in their herd. Like in this situation - the people who are perceived with upper status are the white male freemasons. The people with the lower status are allegedly the outsider females that want something. All the logic in the world bounces off people's thick skulls if it comes from outside women. They're only in animal-world. "ARGH we don't care we're MEN." It's funny because these men are told that they're more logical. But in reality, not one logical argument was received and addressed in a similar logical way on this forum. The only responses I got were when people's herd status was attacked.

Point is, theoretically, you can only move public opinion in this situation while posing as a white male freemason. And you can only convince people as a white male freemason by making arguments that it is actually in THEIR best interests to change. It's not about changing things to be 'fair' or to make the club better. It's appealing to the reptilian survival brain that the club cannot possibly survive without adapting. Or that these male's herd statuses will be elevated with women in the club. You have to move slow with animals. You can only indoctrinate them in one repeated point, over and over and over and over, slowly at about a rate of one point per decade.

However, the big fallacy here is that we think men like Tim are the leaders here. We fail to see the structure of the freemasonry club for what it is -- a club within a club. It's a favor club. It's a stealing club. The favors trickle down according to degree. The guys who are the mouthpieces are kinda the puppets. Who are you trying to convince? The token white leader who only operates on herd-think mentality? Or the real leaders behind the scene? You can argue with Tim all day. He has no power to change anything. He takes his orders from other people. His payoff is from those ranked higher than him.

Moving on, the real leaders behind the scenes have more stuff between the ears. They don't dress in suits and give these BS eloquent speeches. You don't have to convince them with the drip-feed repetitive herd method while posing as one-of-them. You have to network with the real inner occult structure, or the group that controls the puppet-mouthpieces, and get them to work with you if this is really your goal. Or you have to create a situation that demonstrates that it's in the real leaders interests to change things. The people are behind the scenes are in much darker clubs.

However, the leaders behind the scenes have already provided multiple clubs for every race, color, gender, etc. to join and climb up the hidden network. They've provided many doors, but these doors have different names. It's obvious to anyone with half a brain that these clubs all have the same types of salutes and symbols and science behind the rituals. So you have to examine your goals. Are your goals to run around with an apron and pretend to be a freemason too? Do you really care to convince these guys that females can do it too blah blah blah Or are your goals to learn about ritual, learn esoteric knowledge, learn about yourself, learn the science of how the world operates, join the corruption club, etc.etc.

Frankly, I've reexamined my goals here. My goal isn't to work with stodgy know-it-alls. I'm glad I got to have this exchange because I've realized I definitely don't want to interact with these people!! LOLOL I don't know exactly what path I'll take, but I know it won't be this one!!

And even though the concepts of freemasonry fascinate me, I think I got the gist of it in the first three degrees of co-masonry, which are honestly just simulated pretend-masonry. I also learned masonic concepts by watching a few Mark Passio videos which interpret the symbolism brilliantly. I don't know if I want to go much farther in the co-mason world because it's almost as much effort to do the simulation as to do the real thing.


Jan 09, 2015
Still...
by: Tharn

I realize that this is probably not going to sway you, but there really is not a massive, secret, over-arching cabal running everything. Consider that, were that to be so, were all the clubs and groups around us actually part of that Plan, your proposed new group would have to be part of it, too. That is, unless you figure that you're the only person in history bright enough to have broken their code.

So go ahead, start a new group. See what happens. I'd venture to predict that there will be neither secret assistance nor midnight death threats (depending on whether or not your group 'conforms' to the aims of this putative controlling council). And here's the thing - if you succeed, it will be prima facie evidence that the putative control exercised by Them simply is not needed to explain the existence of clubs, groups, organizations and bodies.

Oh, one last thing - and it's advice, not mockery. Depending on people Mark Passio for insight into Masonry and its symbols is like depending on The National Enquirer to keep you abreast of current events. Ditto Prison Planet, Infowars, Above Top Secret, Freemasonry Watch, David Icke and the rest of their ilk. If you really what to learn about Masonic symbolism, there are lots of books out there written by Freemasons on the topic. Passio isn't on the list and, from what I've seen of his stuff, it would take an afternoon just to list the chapter headings of what's wrong with his interpretations and claims,


Jan 10, 2015
Thinking Shortcuts -- by Tharn
by: Lady Anon

It's amazing you can form a thorough opinion of Mark Passio just by looking at some chapter headings. Maybe if you emotionally associate Passio with a slew of other characters, you can take a massive shortcut from logically considering the informational content he presented. Next time I read a book, I'll make sure to check and see if it's on your reading list so I won't think out of your box.

Repeat after me: I will only listen to white guys dressed in suits who write things for "respected" newspapers. Information presented anywhere else is invalid.

Are you actually using logic, or are you emotionally-feeling like you're using logic by following someone else who puts on the facade that they've done all the thinking for you?

Jan 10, 2015
Here we go again..
by: Tharn

I did not – not - say that I condemned Passio's stuff after having only read the chapter headings. I think it is quite clear that I was using a figure of speech, saying that his 'explanations' were full of errors. Reading is our friend, Lady Anon.

But let me be clearer. Passio's claims, like those of the others I mentioned, are generally wrong. While they contain some fact, they also contain much speculation, hype, foolishness, fallacy and error. Matk Passio is an unreliable sources of information on Freemasonry. His presentations are flawed, sensationalistic and – to anybody know knows the topic – pretentious junk.

This is a forum for people who actually want to talk and maybe even learn about Freemasonry. The people answering you here, many of them, have been in the Craft for quite some time and have a far better idea of what Freemasonry is about than Passio. If somebody is interested in learning something, they should talk to somebody who knows something about the topic as opposed to somebody who earns his living selling inflated and sensational nonsense to the gullible, the foolish and the fearful.

Symbols mean what they mean to the people who use them and they can mean different things to different people. Take the letter 'M' as an example. If you want to know what M means as a symbol to a chemist, you wouldn't be wise to listen a guy in a clown costume telling you all about Happy Meals, nor to a printer insisting it's a printer's measure of size, nor to a Latin scholar who will insist that it means 1,000. No, a wise person would ask a *chemist*, who will tell you that it refers to 'molarity', essentially the concentration or strength of a given chemical or substance.

In other words, you should listen to somebody who knows and not discard what they tell you because you don't like the result. And that has nothing to do with the speaker's sex, colour or whatever. It has everything to do with knowledge – and in this case, Mark Passio either is ignoring the truth so as to suck in more paying customers or (charitably) simply doesn't' know what he is talking about.

Either way, he's simply wrong. If you are interested in learning what various symbols mean to Freemasons, you will not learn it from him.

How do I know he's wrong? Because I am a Freemason and because I have spent a fair bit of time studying Freemasonry (including its symbols). I look at his stuff and recognize that what he is saying is hokum. And that has nothing to do with suits vs t-shirts. His facts are incorrect and those who lean on them are being fooled.

Now all that's one issue. The other is that, having come close to being tossed from this forum for insulting and aggressive behaviour, you were offered the opportunity to participate again if you moderated your tone and actually showed an interest in civil discussion. Yet here you are, essentially giving the finger to somebody trying to give you accurate information. It's not 'open discussion' or 'frank interchange of ideas'. It's not 'a different philosophy' or 'another way of looking at things'. It's not even 'new' or 'fresh', for Masonry has seen this sort of loony-toons claims for centuries.

Why is that? Actual learning doesn't seem to be on your radar screen and you show no interest in the opinions of people who know.

Jan 10, 2015
With regret...
by: Tim

Lady Anon,

I've been through the comments on this page again from the beginning of your participation, and can not find that you have added anything of constructive value to the discussion. Your accusations and false information are, at the very least, defamatory. Your comments in general are snide, sardonic, sarcastic and mean. Your argumentative posture and absolute refusal to consider any perspective but your own is proving to be detrimental to any valuable discussion on the topic.

I fear you will never obtain that which you claim to seek, for you lack the primary prerequisite to the obtainment of any useful knowledge. You have no humility. You will never obtain that which you desire because you refuse that which you must first possess.

I regret having to take this action, and I regret not having taken it sooner. Your comments are no longer welcome here.

Sincerely,

Tim

Jan 10, 2015
change or continue the grieveinces
by: Anonymous

You know, if your not going to accept women into the group, cult religion etc..frat, your going to find yourselves expressing your grieviences over and over again, at any woman or gender orientation that is not male....

Then to add, someone mentioned "atheist" freemasonry, nope there is no such thing since the prerequisites are a belief in a higher power , perhaps you were referring to gnostic type masons, those who are uncertain but prefer the possibility of believing such a myth ..
This belief is accepted by the group in order to keep structure and hierarchy in a well defined delusion... as you see in all organised religion.

The truth is someone who believes in a higher power does not understand logic and reason, and logic and reason is not credited by a belief in a deity.

"
Priceless.

Math is Hard, but perception can always be mathematically jaberwocky'd to suit the needed perception.

I'll just stick to my needlepoint pending further Abel Prize wisdom, shall I? Please - do keep it coming; I'll be dining out for weeks on this. "

Exactly, I do not charge for the information I share , unlike the majority of the people on your planet do. Maths is not hard, Maths basically quantises the infinite in measurable units. Everything is Maths.

Jan 11, 2015
Grievances
by: Peter

Well, I'm not sure we do have any 'grievances'. Other people sure seem to, I'll grant you that.

As to a belief in a supreme being, that's a personal choice. Very sorry, but the classic atheistic argument (and you said it nicely, so no hard feelings or grudges) that belief in God is somehow proof of stupidity or gullibility is to my mind better proof of the speaker's arrogance. 'Your views don't agree with my opinion, therefore you're foolish,' is a convenient argument, but not one which impresses me.

Nobody is asked to participate, either in this forum or in Masonry and nobody is discriminated against for not belonging. If your point is that we are going to continue to defend our brotherhood, well, we've been doing that for centuries, against far worse charges than sexism and illogic and against far more formidable foes than we see here.

Again, no offence. You made your point politely. Thanks for your point of view.

Jan 12, 2015
I think Masonry belongs in the middle ages
by: Anonymous

Well, maybe yes or maybe no, depending how far you have fallen asleep in the dellusions of belief that exist on this planet. I get the same responses from anyone who believes in a myth that is religion, theism. Freemasonry is not free, you only made to believe your free, without knowing what freedom is. Religion, Money and Wars is what drains the life of the people that exist on this planet feeding off them.
The thing is there is no god, because it is impossible for such a being to exist , and to know every single consciousness experiencing life in an insignificant lifespan in contrast to the infinite. Even look at the poverty, the war... created by human beings being stupid on this planet. Its all made up , and it is made up to be complicate, create confusion and nonsense. God is a thing people imagine to exist , like how people create characters in a novel or a comic book, and believe them to be real. Following a repetitive ritualistic life style with no innovation or creativity, going on and on for centuries , where knowledge supposed to be embedded in metaphor, but it has been completely lost and obscured , that people believe and agree that the metaphor of the symbol is the actual meaning of the symbol.

I usually pity and feel empathetic for people who still in the dream, of believing that a god exists. In most cases it sickens me because it makes people do terrible things to other people , in most cases when that belief gets so deep and extreme. I feel as if I am here clapping my hands saying wakey wakey wakey.... where it seems you having the perception to the equivalence of someone believing a garden is the world , instead of the whole earth, with that not being the only planet where people walk around, and so on and on, where there are in infinite number of inhabitable words that exist in the infinite, if you are unsure what to define and quantify an insignificant portion of space of the infinite as a universe.

Defending a brother hood , only makes you separate yourself from the rest of society and not understanding that they are another you regardless of what exists between the legs of the body , in which the consciousness exists and operates. The consciousness is the real you, without it you would be nothing but an organic meatbag, an animal. People forget others are the same that they are are all unique consciousnesses existing in an organic body. Without the body , the consciousness would not exist as it would be dispersed in the environment as the vibration of energy ripples through a lack when a stone is dropped in the water, because energy is vibration, motion and movement between particles (includes sub particles in sub particles and so on) It changes and the arrangement gets lost as gets passed on and changes.
Often when one says no offence they do the opposite on what they say. I find this very puzzling, If you are referring to points of view, people who believe in imaginary sky wizzards , have a very small point of view , like comparing the size of your average garden , to the surface area of the planet.


I think Masonry belongs in the middle ages, since thats when it was derived.. time moves on. The masons can be said to be the chip of the old block, as the vatican gave birth to it, and it broke away like a child believing its independent from its parent , is still influenced by its parent , ... It has never grown up , like its parents. I Masonry like the catholic church as the Masons saw the catholic church back in those medieval days.

The disturbing issue is , that like the vatican , and religion, masonry is preventing humanity from moving forward into prosperous future.

Jan 12, 2015
Help me understand something...
by: Traveler

Dear Anonymous,

I was just reading your last post, and I'm confused. You are apparently an atheist (which is your right) and you seem to look down on our brotherhood. So not only are you the very antithesis of what we represent, you actually don't like us very much. So clear something up for me: why are you here? If you think so little of us, and think people who believe in God are stupid, then why waste your time? You have written volumes of posts, asking us for information on an organization you think is stupid and outdated. And you argue with the information we give you because you think you're already an expert (so why ask us to begin with?) My question is why? I mean, why don't you just move on and let us silly, stupid, men with our "middle ages" club alone? Why are you putting so much effort in combating an organization that you think is obsolete?

Jan 12, 2015
The topic is Freemasonry
by: Peter

Well, first off, while you are of course entitled to your beliefs, this is not really a forum for discussing faith vs atheism.

That said and ignoring the unprovable, there are a couple of errors in your thinking.

First, Freemasonry is simply not derived from the Vatican. The *least* tenuous link would be that inhabitants of the UK (where modern Masonry originated) were once almost entirely Roman Catholics. Yet British operative stone masons never were linked to the Vatican in any way but that - and every last single institution in Europe bears that same link, in that 500 years ago all their members were Catholic. Moreover, the religious split between the Vatican and the UK took place almost two centuries before our Craft took its present form. Sorry, but that dog won't hunt.

Next, as to the claim that religion is responsible for people doing terrible things, I have to say that fanaticism, extremism WRT any - any - belief system - is more correct. Religion can indeed be the cause - has been many times - but ditto for atheism. Think not? Look at the millions of people slaughtered in purely, strictly, dogmatically atheistic states such as the former Soviet Union, the PRC or the DPRK. (Oh, speaking of poverty and war created by people being stupid, how about that (atheistic) North Korea anyhow?) Any - any - belief, taken to the extreme, can result in evil. Religious fanaticism, while it certainly has led to horrible things, is just one fanaticism out of many.

As to your statement that defending our brotherhood somehow distances Masons fm society at large, it's hard to see why. We all have our own lives, interact with people at work, at school, in parks the same as anyone else. It's not like a monastery. Many Masons haven't been to lodge in years. How have they distanced themselves from the world?

Nor is it at all obvious that, were Freemasonry to simply vanish at midnight tonight, that society would somehow be less inhibited or something. As Masonry is not a religion, were Masonry to disappear in a thunderclap, the number of religious men, the amount of religious faith here on Earth, would not change in the slightest.

Be happy to continue this, but let's not bother dragging in any further arguments for or against atheism or religion. We'll accept that you think we're foolish for believing in an unseen deity; you can accept that we think you're a bit arrogant for coming here to tell us how foolish we are. Put that aside and let's discuss Freemasonry.

Cheers.

Jan 12, 2015
My reasons
by: Anonymous

The reasons why I post, is this organisation has a lot of influence over people's lives and are in positions of the judicial-political system that effects people's lives. If it were just a club an people's lives were uneffected , I would simply ignore it.

How and why should people who believe in sky wizards and fairy tails should be in positions making decisions that effect people's lives, because they feel they have a moral objective to do it ? I simply put my foot down and share a few thoughts on the matter. Discrimination is often the game you folks do , especially to women. A society that does not treat other members of society equally is subjective to be a failure, do to the lack of balance.

I do not have any beliefs. Beliefs are accepting something on the basis of faith without any evidence. Belief cannot be logically associated with knowing and understanding , where knowing is something on the basis of experiencing and observing something. Understanding is when you understand something on the basis of logic, reason and evidence. There is no evidence of a god, and it is the same when children believe in a Santa.

Freemasonry did derive from the vatican, where the knights templar who were christian and religious , set out on a mission to find the holy grail. Christianity had been invented by the roman empire, by taking teachings of a man that roamed the middle east sharing spiritual based teachings. If this man was alive today , he would be upset and opposed to the fact his teachings had been collected and used as a money extortion and turned into a religion. This is evident when the Synagogue, a place of spirituality had been turned into a shopping mall, went ballistic. The very thing, that made him a target of the authorities. Like anything else that anyone would do today would be controversial and turn the tables on the delusion of the system of economics and money. There is even a masonic lobby in the vatican, and has been mentioned by the pompous pope.

the bigger picture is how religion and beliefs and theism is used to manipulate and exploit people people for economic gain and power.

Masonry not a religion ? then why does it follow dogmas and constructs that exist in religions and cults ? funny how people point fingers at North Korea when the USA and Europe has the highest stockpile of atomic warheads on the entire planet. Yes I agree only politics is a job that attacks bullies like faeces attracts flies. You have only counted a handful of atheists , compared to the collective history of theists who were low conscious bastards that went into politics for their hunger of wealth and enjoyment of hurting and exploiting people's lives.

Theism is the reason why masonry exists in the first place.


Jan 12, 2015
None so blind...
by: Peter

Son, I ain't gonna argue with somebody who is not only seriously misinformed (the Templars being but one example), but also off-topic and unwilling to listen to those on the ground.

Discussion ends.

Jan 12, 2015
gdenr perception issues
by: Anonymous

son ? I am not male ... having calling me that is key to why Freemasonry is Fraternity and why the sky wizard god has a penis with male pronouns ....

the thing is the people like you on this planet can be perceived like rats in a maze, where everything they see and learn or taught is at ground level within the maize , and never even thought what this maize would look like when observing it at a bird's eye view.

Jan 13, 2015
Stalemate
by: Traveler

The problem with "Anonymous" is that she is a conspiracy theorist. It doesn't matter how many times we tell her that we're not a bunch of "men" controlling the world through the new world order. It doesn't matter how many times we explain to her that we don't start wars, or pollute the planet. She's a conspiracy theorist and I can tell you from experience that conspiracy theorist are going to believe what they want to and their not going to change their minds. When you begin to win an argument with them, they just call you a "porch mason." Because in their heads, Freemasonry is a complex hierarchy and only a few at the top knows whats going on. Anonymous is going to believe this no matter what... so we are at a Stalemate.

Jan 13, 2015
Assumptions
by: Anonymous

I dont understand why people would resort to assumptions and labels when expressing the observations. You seem to do this with a lot of people who say something. Why ?

I never mentioned "new world order" at all, because I see a stupid system that has been going on for centuries on your planet.
The observations say that you pollute the planet because you cannot evolve from the economic money system , thus cling on to old technology because it is viable to the economy rather than people's lives and the ecosystem of the planet.

Since you mentioned hierarchy, that only supports the observation of he ridiculous system , where society is not treated and respected as unique collective individuals who play a role in keep society going, but it is selective on the basis of rank , in the context of money, ritual and belief rather than consciousness, understanding and knowing.

In a society that is structured as secrets being the heart of it all, one cannot distinguish, know and understand what is a lie and what is truth.

Jan 13, 2015
Your perspective on Freemasons...
by: Tim

Anonymous,

I would agree that our economic and societal systems are flawed, and that we as a species on this planet are in jeopardy due to troubles of our own making. But, I don't understand why you would want to place the blame for these flaws and troubles on a fraternal society whose only purposes are to do good in the world and encourage people to inculcate qualities such as love, courage, compassion, honor, honesty and truth into their lives?

I do not doubt the sincerity of your convictions but from our perspective, that of actually being Freemasons with actual knowledge of the fraternity, the only route that leads to the conclusions you seem to have drawn about us is through conspiracy theories advanced by those who wish to profit monetarily by falsely sensationalizing our very existence.

I agree that it's often difficult to know what is a lie and what is truth. This would be the case in any but a completely altruistic society, which I do not believe mankind is yet capable of. But, why do you choose to believe what others say about us and not what we say about ourselves? There are plenty of real boogeymen in the world. Why do you believe we are one?

Jan 13, 2015
Explanatiom?
by: Jean

"But why do you choose to believe what others say about us and not what we say about ourselves? There are plenty of real boogeymen in the world. Why do you believe we are one?

...

I've wondered about that for a long time.

First off, I think, it's because Freemasons are all (with a curtsy to Mrs Aldsworth) men and therefore are automatically part of that overarching, dominating, oppressive 'Patriarchy' which everybody loves to hate. (It's an accepted fact these days that the poorest man begging in the gutter has more privilege than a woman pulling down half-a-million dollars as a corner office tax lawyer.)

And many Masons are middle-aged or old, which makes their sin that much more palpable.

So that's obviously Strike One. Trying to deny it proves misogyny, of course.

And Masons' meetings are exclusive. Outsiders don't get to
see them, so there just *has* to be something dark and sinister going on. (Actually, I suspect that if the world's Freemasons flung open their doors one evening and let everybody watch, those now complaining the loudest would recoil in - I'll not say 'shame' as that useful emotion has with the peach switch been banished of late as not progressive - embarrassment at how foolish their claims had now made them look.)

Tied to that, I think, is the naiive and cloying sense of entitlement which has become dogma and gospel in some quarters. Everybody - just everybody - should be able to see into everybody's windows (except their own, of course). Everybody has a *right* to a new car every year and a luxury condo, with fancy kitchen. To be denied anything that anybody else has is a personal affront.

And you won't let them in. So that's Strike Two.

Above all, I think it's because The World Is Confusing. Coincidence is ever-present and weird things happen. Bad things happen, too, and worse, the Wrong people are wealthy. To the fearful, the foolish and the awkward, it's easier to believe in an irrationally implausible conspiracy than it is to accept, as my son the soldier would say, that 'nasty-smelling stuff' happens. After all, left to themselves, things would work perfectly, right? Things are not perfect and chance is dismissed, so there just *has* to be a conspiracy, QED-and-it's-your-fault. Strike Three.

(Paradoxically, I've noticed, it's fundamentalist atheists who seem to find it hardest to accept things happening without an invisible directing hand. How very curious.)

Wrap it all up together and Masonry is the obvious culprit for world's troubles and problems. Paranoia is no longer just for the lucid, the intelligent, the logical and the well-educated.

My thoughts, anyway.

Jan 14, 2015
Just a thought....
by: Tim

Jean,
Thank you for the considered explanation. Wish I had time to write a proper response tonight but may I just say, I really like you. :-)

Jan 14, 2015
The big question: Does Freemasonry Matter?
by: Tim

Jean,

I hope the gush of admiration in my previous post was not inappropriate. I only meant that I very much admire your obvious intellect, eloquence of expression and sense of humor. Thank you for contributing to the discussion.

I find your observations very interesting. Some of which certainly seem in concert with my own but some, I have to admit, I had not considered. For instance, it never occurred to me that simply by being a man I am assigned such privilege and power. It's kind of deflating in a way to find out at this late date. It's like being told when your life is two/thirds over, "Oh by the way, you're a wizard and you have whole hat full of magical powers." It's interesting, I think, how so many people seem to think that everyone else has it better and/or easier than they do. I wonder if that's human nature or societal conditioning.

I had to laugh at the thought of us throwing our doors open for all to witness one of our meetings. I attended a meeting last night and the idea of all the conspiracy theorists and their rapt followers seeing just how mundane our meetings generally are was was quite amusing. I'd have to disagree though that they would be embarrassed by their past foolishness. I think instead they would simply insist that our humdrum meeting was a pretense so as to preserve our super-duper secrets.

The sense of entitlement is another interesting insight that I hadn't consciously applied in my own considerations. We see this blight on our people everywhere we look these days, and it certainly makes sense that it would come into play in people's perceptions of us. I think you hit that particular nail squarely and truly on the head.

And finally, the big one, the above all. The World Is Confusing and Stuff Happens. This is the ultimate conclusion that I always come to. People seem to need to blame someone. Maybe the idea of a dark and sinister shadow society pulling the strings and controlling everything is less scary than the realization that no one is actually in control. Maybe it's easier to accept the disappointments of life if it's all someone elses fault. Sure beats taking the responsibility and consequences for our own choices and actions.

All this leads me to one more question. Accepting your explanation and considering that we have these three strikes against us, are we wasting our time trying to explain the truth of Freemasonry? Is anyone listening? Are we making a difference? Can we turn the tide and convince the world of our truly honorable and benevolent purposes, or can we simply be content to know that someone, somewhere may be listening? What will happen if we withdraw from the debate? I know that's like five questions, but there all kind of rolled together.

Anyway, thanks for giving me more stuff to think about.

Fraternally,

Tim

Jan 15, 2015
Not to worry
by: Jean

Dear Tim,

Please keep in mind that I was responding to your 'why pick on us?' question. Don't lose sight of who you were speaking when you asked that question. Those 'three strikes' are factors only for those not sufficiently bright or balanced to see how wretchedly foolish such propositions actually are.

Your audience, as I see it, has some very different some different types of people.

First there are Masons, trying to help out by sharing their knowledge and insight and also have a little arms-length social interaction.

Then there are those with a specific question, like, "Is there a lodge near my town?" or "How old do you have to be to join?" or "What should I do with my grandfather's apron?" They generally go away informed and satisfied. Some, like the woman who started this thread off, may not like the answers they get, but they are still prepared to discuss it politely.

Then there the curious, the student writing a paper, the woman whose uncle was a Mason - in general, normal people wanting to find out more about Freemasonry. They're open-minded, glad to find the site, happy to learn.

Sadly, also in the wings are the trolls, those poor cankered souls whose only way of feeling validated is by stirring up discord among total strangers. A Masonic forum works just fine for them, but once thrown out of here (and you are far, far too patient, I think), they're quite happy to stir up conflict on a petit-point website or a site on animal husbandry. The payoff is the same for them.

Finally, there are those whose brittle little minds are already made up, who come solely to taunt, to accuse, to throw odium at perfect strangers. To them the truth is of remarkably little importance - they already *know* the truth.

The trolls, the immature, the haters - well, their minds are made up. Trying to appeal to their good nature with logic and facts and patience is like wrestling with a pig - everybody gets dirty and the pig loves it. Their purpose is neither to discuss nor to learn; they are here to spread hate and, if possble, make themselves look important. If nobody paid any attention, then they'd be nothing more than themselves, poor dears, rattling around in Mom's basement until it's time to head off to a shift at the second window. Sad, really.

Masons make a nice lightning rod for them, for the reasons I noted earlier.

The whole issue is stoked by the self-serving, the greedy and the unscrupulous, who have determined that fear and hate sell well to the gullible, the confused and the frightened. Their sites and books bring in millions of dollars from people whose progressive education never included life skills like logic or critical thinking. And search engines pull up sites by the number of visitors, not by reliability or honesty, do rabidly batty nonsense gets as much if not more play than reality.

At day's end? Friendlies are certainly there, Tim. People with genuine questions generally seem to go away satisfied - and there are a fair number of those. Most people seem to benefit, to learn and are happy with your efforts.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that this site serves a useful purpose and is positively viewed by many good people. Like potholes and lost socks, the strident, the spiteful, the smugly opinionated and the trolls are facts of life decent people need to work around.

Just remember whose opinions matter.

Jan 15, 2015
Grouping people that come here in little boxes :/
by: Anonymous

My response to you Jean, you seem to love to group people into little boxes on the basis of what we have to say ? I came here to express my thoughts that it is ridiculous and the main problem that this group excludes women from the club.... as if they treated as a lower species...

Then having experienced from the trauma in my childhood caused by religious people, such as christains and the masons in the town I had grown up in, excluded from everything because of being physically different, such as looking like an alien from a sic-fi movie, and born intersexed and also because I differ by thought and don't follow and believe things without questioning, then been thrown in the corner of society by christians, and masons, I was placed in a position where I became a clear observer of all this, outside, looking in instead of inside looking out.

Jan 15, 2015
Welcome advice....
by: Tim

Dear Jean,

Thanks. I needed that.

Jan 16, 2015
typical
by: Anonymous

typical , IRL is no different from the treatment in cyberspace...

ignoring the obvious, while you march off to extinction out of your stupidity, congratulations, I wish you luck hoping you don't kill yourselves of your little planet, which is the obvious thing that will happen :/

Jan 16, 2015
Speaking of QED...
by: Jean

Point proved.

Jan 16, 2015
obviously
by: Anonymous

Obvious they won't apologise to the planet the austrocities they created, and they refused to apologise to contributing to my childhood trauma in the little town i lived in , like the christians...

Jan 16, 2015
QED 2
by: Tim

Point taken...

Jan 24, 2015
A video documentry
by: Anonymous

As you know the Doomsday Clock is now 3 minutes to midnight...

This is a video documentary I made https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-GepTCk7iM

Jan 24, 2015
Poor Zana
by: mike

Sigh. So much talent, so much hatred, so much fear, so little reality.

Such a pity. You have so much potential, so much energy - and this sort of childish fable is *it*? Parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus...

Foolish, paranoid, rambling, unsubstantiated claims remain foolish, unsubstantiated rambling and paranoid, even if wrapped in high art. Truly, Zana, you have so much talent; don't waste it on this silliness. Time to get on with life; you could be doing so much with your abilities. This simply isn't it. The choice is yours, nobody else's; what you do with the rest of your life is in your hands alone. Is this how you wish to be remembered?

Jan 24, 2015
great entertainment
by: Traveler

Thanks so much for sharing your little video! I haven't laughed that hard since the breakfast club!

Jan 25, 2015
advice
by: Anonymous

Well if this planet was not heading towards extinction, I would not have done this video. Expressing concerns on planet issues is not hatred. Its mere frustration that a group of people, can make this planet a living hell for the rest that reside here.

You have options , to provide the planet with a prosperous future, end secrecy, end niche cliche behaviour and resource hogging, and care about the ecology, or just carry on the way they are believing everything is fine as the dooms day clock ticks closer to midnight.

You won't be laughing when your faced with extinction.

I cant tell how you should on this planet, however I am showing you that if you continue with this, you have to face your own extinction.

Jan 25, 2015
Bowled out
by: Mike

Sorry, Zana, but you have done nothing to convince anybody of anything. All you have done is to take your usual list of implausible claims and wild accusations and make a video to air them. Technically pretty good, capable to getting *two* gold stars in Mrs Noodlebaum's Grade 7 videography class. So congratulations on that.

Now, as to content... Nothing - nothing - at all new. And not a shred of *evidence*. Taking a clip from somebody else's staged reenactment of a Masonic meeting is not evidence, much less proof. Nor is saying, "BAD!" over and over and over. Nor is a list of dire warnings by themselves.

You have produced a one hour, 20 minute rant, nothing more; it's nothing anybody beyond the wacko fringe will take seriously. To convince the world, you're going to break out of your hatebox and actually start showing e-v-i-d-e-n-c-e.

In the court of public opinion, Zana, you are the prosecutor whose talent seems limited to the reading of the charges, over and over and over and over and over, increasingly shrilly and in an increasingly loud voice. What is missing, what the jury (those "inhabitants of Earth," you address in your little flick) needs to be shown is something beyond looped accusations. Back to the concept of e-v-i-d-e-n-c-e, Zana. Proof. Substantiation. Something more than a festering sense of grievance.

You clearly have talent. You could be using it in ways that people will pay attention to, ways which might actually support positive change. Instead, you seem to have chained yourself in a culture of victimhood, moaning to faceless strangers about implausible cabals and UFO cults, spending God only knows how long producing a video extension of your fantasies, to be viewed by a few dozen people around the world.

That's not success, Zana. This will convince nobody. To 99.99999% of the world, this is merely the sort of weirdness seen in wild-eyed men in ragged Biblical robes on street corners with signs reading REPENT! THE END IS NIGH! Absent evidence, it's given the same attention those poor men get, with people crossing the road to avoid them. Even if the end *is* nigh, nobody will ever be convinced by that approach.

I'm not saying this for our sake; you pose precisely zero threat to Freemasonry. But for your own sake, please drop this; use your talents usefully. This isn't it..It's just sad watching somebody frittering their life away. Take those two gold stars and get on with life.



Jan 25, 2015
Like an Ostrich sticking its head in the sand
by: Anonymous

Well then, if your not convinced that a group of people are leading the planet towards extinction, it is just as crazy as someone who believes in an imaginary sky wizzard. Well, thats what you assume , that I had taken from others. You don't realise that and forget that I have taken from observation and personal experience what I experienced in child hood with religious and cultic people.

You can say I had a shit childhood from what I have experienced and it was from christianity and freemasonry people in the town. The discrimination i had received for being inersexed.

reefing it to a school video obviously reflects your hatred towards me on what I shared. Not only that your hatred to humanity and your refusal to care.

The evidence is under your nose, but you refuse to acknowledge it and keep it secret... thats why a secret society is called a secret society.

The thing is I never chosen "victimhood" neighed do I agree to the theory of it, as evident from experience it is bogus. People treat people like shit because they are different. You cannot deny that fact. Your also shifting the topic away from the observation in question, and target me as an individual. This is common with what I have experienced in life from organised religious institutions.

Ironic that you would refer my personal experiences and relationship with extraterrestrial people as "ufo cults". You assume I believe and not know, and secondly god does not exist. I am not 100% an earth person, since I have relatives as well in another solar system.

The objective of the video was not to convince people but rather enable them to think and look at reality at a birds eye perspective , rather than at ground level.

The truth is You cannot perceive me and associate me for being the equivalent of some religio-tard on the street corner, when the board of atomic scientists see the same things the way I do, and have by analysis of planet issues moved the doomsday clock to three minutes to midnight. I do not say "the end is nigh " I say that your extinction is eminant if you do not change certain things that would allow humanity to be prosperous in the future, not polluting the planet, causing wars , pain and suffering and be part of the galactic community eventually. The three things that are preventing a prosperous future, is Money, Religion and War, and there are minorities of male only groups that that have influenced this.

Of course I am not threat to anyone, including freemasonry. Your only a threat to yourselves, if only you would realise it.

Jan 26, 2015
something sparked my interest
by: Traveler

Something in your last post struck my interest. You say you're not a 100% earth person but have relatives in another Solar System? Could you elaborate on that? tell us about your "space relatives"

Jan 28, 2015
Star Child NEW
by: Anonymous

Yep , I am not 100% earth person, and have a mother, Anananiah who lives roughly 400 lightyears away. All the people of the planet exist as one gender. The planet, which is mostly an ocean planet with scattered islands. It has three moons, one with a mild atmosphere looking similar to mars, another with a rocky surface , similar to Luna the moon of this planet, and one that is completely crystalline. It exists in a binary stolar system of one a white dwarf and blue dwarf star. On the surface the vegetation has dark blue-purple leaves. The grass on the other hand is orange-pink and soft like sea anemones. The seas tend retain a greeny colour, that is from the deap sea seaweed is green rather than red on this planet.

The people live in organic homes, and they don't build but rather grow their homes and infrastructure from bioengineering, so things can coexist with their environment. Their space craft are bioengineered creatures of metal , plant and flesh, that provide mini ecosystems in the vacuum of space.

Anananniah more or less visits me roughly in the space of 10-20 years, perhaps because of the time it takes for them to travel 400 lightyears. However their technology is improving all the time like this planet.
I have implants that enable me to to transmit thought at high frequencies these also allow my consciousness to to be transferred to other bodies, like her people, or other people on other planets such as another planet , well moon actually that orbits a saturn like planet around a red dwarf. Often when these are active, they tend to produce large discharge that have destroyed appliances , electric bulbs , or set off the security alarms in shops off , even car alarms off when I walk past them and I am in deep thought.

Jan 28, 2015
Hmmm NEW
by: Anonymous

It sounds like a nice place. Tell me more about personal relationships in Anananiah's society. Just one gender must make it very different.

Jan 28, 2015
fascinating NEW
by: Traveler

yeah tell me more about how your space mom speaks to you. I want to know about the implants? Also how did you figure out you were an alien?

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