Can a woman become a Freemason?

Can a woman become a Freemason?

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Dec 15, 2010
It depends
by: Tim

The answer to this question is basically, it depends. First, it depends on who you ask; again, it depends on your definition of being a Freemason; and again it depends on where you reside.

Women in Masonry is an ongoing issue that quickly becomes complicated as well as controversial. Traditionally, women were not permitted to join the Masonic fraternity, period. In most recognized Grand Lodges today this tradition still exists. This has nothing to do with an opinion or attitude toward women. It is simply a tradition that may, or may not, someday be changed. However, there are several organizations within the Masonic family for women.

In the U.S. we have the Order of the Eastern Star. The membership of this organization is made up of Master Masons and women with certain affiliations to a Mason. For more information visit the General Grand Chapter Web site.

The Order of the Amaranth is a Masonic organization open to Master Masons in good standing within the Masonic Fraternity, and immediate female relatives of Master Masons who are at least eighteen years of age. For more information visit the Web site of the Supreme Council Order of the Amaranth.

While not officially recognized by all regular Grand Lodge jurisdictions there do exist some organizations for women which follow the teachings and tenets of Freemasonry. The Women's Grand Lodge of Belgium is an independent Grand Lodge that has chartered subordinate women's lodges in other parts of the world, including in the U.S.

Women's Freemasonry - USA consists of three Women's Lodges chartered by the Women's Grand Lodge of Belgium since 1992. Their hope is to one day form the Women's Grand Lodge of the United States.

American Co-Masonry is an independent body that welcomes both men and women on an equal footing.

The Honourable Fraternity of Ancient Freemasons is a women's Masonic fraternity that was founded and organized in the UK in 1913 by women and for women. They currently have lodges in the UK, Gibraltar, and Spain.

le Droit Humain (the Human Right) International is a co-Masonic organization that began in France, and now has about 27,000 members in over 60 countries worldwide and on 5 continents.

Thanks for the question and I hope this information will be helpful.

Fraternally yours,

Tim

Feb 06, 2011
Power of Women
by: Bree

Was Isis, a Goddess and Wife of Osiris not allowed to be privy to the ancient Wisdoms and Sacred Rituals? There were ALLOT of Divine Women, who, I believe, were the driving persons behind the male learning. Did any of them sponsor the idea of wars and murders? No.men did and do. And then there's Cleopatra, who ruled Egypt. And Mary Magdeline, the FAVORED Apostle of Jesus, the Christ energy embodied! Although I possess the compassion of people's Paths to Enlightenment...

Feb 13, 2011
My Personal reason
by: Ed Mahoney

As I understand one of the many definitions of Freemasonry is supposed to be a Fraternity. Not a religion or a union or other such things.
All of my adult working life I worked in a woman dominated profession--Nursing.
When I was a wee lad of 13 or 14, in Jr. High, I won the tumbling team competition to become the team clown for the ensuing school year. Coincidentally, The Shrine Circus played in my hometown that summer. He was traveling with that particular Circus only because he want to assist the several Shrines that were trying to raise money for their Mosques.
Short of a long story, through his influence, I was allow to perform(unpaid) with the show for 2 weeks. During those two weeks I was privileged to perform for the patients of a Shrine Hospital. At the end of those two weeks I swore a private oath that I would one day become a Shriner. About 40 years later I became one. That experience of seeing the care received by those kids was instrumental in the decision I made many years later to become a Registered Nurse.
Any way when I was entered, I was very pleasantly surprised that there were no women present nor would there ever be in tiled Lodge. I had equals of my own sex to interact with, for good or ill.
About a year after my raising, I ask my Candidate's Coach about the lack of women in the Lodge. He instructed me again that Freemasonry, especially the Blue Lodge, was a Fraternity--defined as the relation of a brother or between brothers. He further pointed out some of the salient features of entering, passing and raising, namely our manner of dress, or maybe lack there of. I remember him saying:Ed, would you want to be present at the initiation of your wife, sister, mother etc.? That question stimulated a very graphic picture of my wife being initiated in front of a bunch of brothers. That was enough reason for me to exclude women from the Blue Lodge.
Women in my opinion benefit greatly from their Brothers, Fathers, Grandfathers, Uncles, etc being in the Blue Lodge. They are free of the company of those male for a few hours of the month so they may do whatever it is that women do when men are not around. In some cases, particularly in Lodges that have programs that encourage wives and families to attend Stated dinners they become active participants in the activities of the Lodge. I know that is not the same as going to the Lodge Room for the Meeting. By and large Stated Meetings are dull and last too long. If they but knew that our biggest secret is how boring Freemasonry can be.
So Ladies count yourselves lucky that you can join a sorority.

Mar 01, 2011
Breasts Are For Feeding Babies
by: Anonymous

This is a partial response to the brethren who would not want to see their female relatives during the initiation or have their "brothers" be present to witness the event. If I wanted to join the Masons, I would not care about exposing my breast to get poked with a sword. Guys just do not get it ! Breasts are for feeding babies. That's it ! So get over it ! I have a feeling if a woman joined the masons, all the old farts would get an erection over a flash of breast and drop dead of heart attacks on the spot ! The membership would be decimated ! On a somewhat related topic, if the motto is "If you want to be one, ask one", is it still legal under Human rights to deny membership to women ?

Aug 08, 2011
Ridiculous
by: Computer Guy

As with any fraternal organization, at some point, it will become a challenge for a woman or group thereof to question the legalities or discriminatory nature of the organization. As the definition of fraternal suggests, it is for men only. Much like the boy scouts should be for boys and girl scouts should be for girls. One could go on with organizations forbidding the opposite sex from joining. However, if it comes down to a legal fight, a woman is praised for her actions to open up the organization and break down the discriminatory walls and nature of the Bi-Laws of the organization. If a man was to do the same thing to a woman's organization he would be shunned by his fellow man for doing so. As it has been explained, there are sub organizations of Free Masonry, which are open to women. Can't this be left alone and let something so old keep it's heritage and standards? I am a master mason and would resign in a heartbeat if a woman showed up at my lodge with legal documents stating she had the right to join. There really are no secrets per-say that can't be found out on the internet. We don't control the world, know where the national treasure is, or kill people (At least not anymore). I want to join the YWCA. I don't want to be discriminated against so I want to use the same changing rooms and showers that the women use at the same time they are using them. Of course I am kidding on the latter, but in all seriousness, let it be.

Aug 25, 2011
computer guy
by: S & I

It sounds like you do not like women Computer Guy. Do you work with any women ? Do you have women friends ? I am a woman. I don't consider it a challenge to wreck your club. I just want to explore the same questions as my husband does when he goes to lodge. It seems to be a big, hairy deal though. I do believe it is wrong to base membership to any organization on gender (race, religion, sexual orientation, physical or intellectual challenges etc.).

I wouldn't care if we had unisex washrooms or changerooms. At this point in my life I couldn't care less if guys were in the changeroom:). It would bother me however if men were in the same washroom/changeroom as my daughters.

Good to know that masons don't kill people, at least not any more:)

Aug 25, 2011
Calm down Ed !
by: S & I

Why exactly wouldn't you want women in the lodge ? What do you think women would do to it ? I just don't understand the allure of being in a room full of men. I guess I don't think about whether or not I hang out with solely men or solely women or both. I can't think of a woman's group that bars people from joining because they don't have a vagina. If you know of one, please tell me.

I joined the Order of the Eastern Star because I don't have the appropriate genitalia to join the masons. I am not sure what if anything I can tell you but you might know anyway. When people are initiated, they are told stories about women from the Bible. Supposedly, these stories are beautiful. The first story was horrifying. I wasn't even listening when I was told the rest of the stories because I was trying to figure out where the beauty was in that first story. I am still wondering. Now I don't want to go back because I don't want to be around people who think that story is beautiful. When I think about attending another meeting, I feel sick. Since I wasn't listening to the rest of it, I can't remember all the secret passwords anyway.

I've read my husband's books. He didn't let me, I just went ahead. I understand those stories and their relationship to the stages of life. They are far more meaningful to me. I think I would be far more comfortable in the masons. Honestly, I do not want to be a mason just to ruin your club.

Aug 26, 2011
Ed
by: S & I

No Ed. I'm not trying to agitate you. I'm just wondering why the idea of women in the lodge bothers you or any other mason for that matter. I am sincere. I am not a fraud. I guess I'm just trying to make you think about the idea.

Was it my feelings about OES that make you think I'm trying to agitate? Are you in the OES ? I was supposed to go to chapter the other night and truly, I thought I was going to be physically ill. I didn't go.

I did understand what was in the booklets because I had done a lot of other reading prior to that. The short forms were hard to work out at first, but I generally knew what they meant.

If my post agitated you, it wasn't meant to do so. I am wondering if the reason men do not want women in the masons is that men do not feel that they can be their true selves around women. If so, that's sad (not meant sarcastically).

Aug 26, 2011
reviewed your initial post
by: S & I

Okay Ed. I reviewed your initial post. I think when your bro asked you if you would want your wife to be initiated in front of all the other guys, that's where the lack of understanding comes in.

When my husband was an enterd apprentice, he didn't have to go shirtless. He had to wear this suit (top and bottoms) with flaps for the breasts to be exposed at the appropriate time. When he did his fellowcraft, he just wore his regular clothes. I have seen a video online made by a fundamentalist Christian group. It shows the candidate shirtless with a blue cape (really gross and hairy too)for either fellowcraft or mm. I don't know for sure, but I think my husband was told at the time he did the fc that they just wear their street clothes for the mm thing as well. Apparently, these rituals differ slightly from one lodge to another. That's likely why I am wondering why it's such a big deal for women to be initiated into the lodge. In your lodge, the blue cape initiation-gear may be what candidates have to wear.

I wonder how you would feel if you were not allowed to join a group that interested you just because of your gender. I can assure you, it's not a great feeling. I wish my husband would understand that it is morally wrong to me to ban people from anything because of gender. However, I refuse to tell him what to do because I don't want him running my life either. He thinks this problem is solved because I am in the OES. He doesn't realize that I don't ever want to go to chapter again because of that first story. Maybe I can just direct him to read that story in the Bible and then he will see why I do not want to attend chapter.


Aug 26, 2011
S&I
by: Anonymous

I do not have women friends except for my wife. I do work with a woman. That woman is my wife and she runs my entire operation consisting of 3 stores located in Wisconsin and Michigan. She is highly intelligent and also understands what we, the masons, are about and does not wish to attempt to join our FRATERNITY.

Aug 26, 2011
S&I
by: Computer Guy

Sorry the last 2 anonymous comments were from me.

Aug 26, 2011
rogue lodge ?
by: S & I

Well, that's great that your wife is your friend. My husband is my best friend too. That's why I feel sad that he wants to be in a group that discriminates based on gender. Again, I am not going to tell him what to do, even though I get very angry over it as well.

Aug 26, 2011
additional
by: S & I

I just wanted to add, I already know about the first three degrees anyway. I have read extensively all the books I could find in the library about freemasonry. I have also looked a lot of stuff up on the internet and weeded out the conspiracy theories. It's not as though you would be telling anything I didn't already know. Yeah, I know, you took an oath.

Aug 26, 2011
S&I
by: Computer Guy

Let's look at this from another perspective. In college we had fraternities and sororities. What would you think of a guy trying to bust into a sorority because of what you consider discrimination? As I said before, he would be laughed off the face of this planet. However, in your eyes, it would be perfectly acceptable for a woman to join a fraternal organization because it's discriminatory in nature. Just doesn't makes no sense. There are lodges in the US that are not recognized by Grand Lodge with the same rituals and initiations as ours which were founded by and for women. You should look into those.

Aug 26, 2011
Why would anyone want to be in a sorority?
by: S & I

I've never belonged to a sorority. Why do they have these groups ? I've never belonged to any organization that did not accept both men and women. I guess I just don't understand why this is a big deal.

You're right. There are no co-masonry groups anywhere near where I live. I'm having huge anxiety about returning to the OES. After we were through our three months of constant fighting about the masons, my husband told me he didn't see any reason why women couldn't be in the masons. Just because he is of that opinion doesn't mean anything will change. I don't want to go to any masonic functions with him because it just makes me feel worse that I can't be a member. It makes me feel like a second class citizen just because I'm female.

Aug 27, 2011
S&I
by: Computer Guy

Actually I am the face of my flourishing company. My wife runs the day to day operations. The only reason you think I am a bad man is because I don't agree with you. Well, I can tell you a thing or 2 about the real world. First and foremost free masonry does not define me, nor am I the definition of it. I haven't worked for anyone but myself since I was 21 years of age. I am now 40 and living the REAL American dream if you will. I have always taken work home with me. I have never put anything before my businesses, family or employees. My average week consists of roughly 80 hours or more for which I get compensated for half of those hours in order to keep all of my employees full time in a really crappy economy. I volunteer my time, though I have very little extra to give. Rather than buy toys I put all of my extra money into college funds for my 2 young sons so they can have a better life than I had and maybe not have to work nearly as hard as their mother and I have had to. I have worked very hard to not be in the financial position most Americans find themselves in so I can provide a better fiscal and trickled down emotional LIFE for my children and wife. I give money to the poor and borrow it to anyone who is in need, interest free, without question of when I will get it back. I respect my wife, her opinions, and her feeling. Though I don't necessarily agree with her all of the time. I could go on and on about my life and who I am but to sum it up, this is what makes me a mason, SACRIFICE. Something you understandably know little about. However, I am not the exception. The organization is made up of many like me and that is what defines our organization as the BROTHERHOOD of free masonry.

Aug 27, 2011
Really ?
by: S & I

I will study freemasonry independently, until the day comes. I wish you both peace. I hope you can release your fear and make room for change.

Aug 28, 2011
Wow
by: A shocked wife of a freemason

Wow...that's all I can say. There must be a HUGE difference in lodges and the caliber of men that they allow into their fraternity. My husband is a master mason in one of the largest lodges in our state. It's the real deal...no rogue lodge etc. When he did his degree work the first thing his worshipful master told him was that he shouldn't keep any secrets from me except for the identifcation/grips etc. Other than that they told him, (as well as the other candidates) that they should be open and share everything with their wives regarding the rituals and ceremonies and symbols and meanings of everything they learned. They told him that keeping these kinds of things secret would only cause problems in a marriage and that this was NOT the aim of freemasonry...far from it, actually. While I kind of wish I could actually see the rituals etc, or participate (because I think I'd like it) I understand why men like to have bonding time with other men...I was in a sorority in college so I 'get' it. Those times were sacred to me, and some of my best most cherished friends are from those years. I wish there were women lodges that had the same rituals etc, and that we could experience it with other women, etc. I do think it's easier to 'let go' when you are with others of the same sex. But wow, I am very glad my husband isn't being instructed and taught by masons such as these who seem to not only not respect women in general, but even their own wives. How sad. I have met a lot of freemasons and I can honestly say that isn't the norm. Most of my husbands brothers treat me with the utmost respect.

Aug 29, 2011
gentlemen?
by: ASW

Dear Computer guy and Ed Mahoney,

Your replies in this forum shows that freemasonry must change, if it will not forever be associated with discrimination, intolerance and bigotry.
It seems to me that in your cases, you have not yet gained a high level of personal maturity as you cannot view women as equals. I am truly sorry
for you and for the freemasons who wish to include women. I know a large number including my husband and they would feel ashamed for the opinions aired in this thread.

Dear S&I,
Yes, we wives will continue to study freeemasonry independently and continue to question the gender discrimination which soils the purpose of it. Wish you the best.

/Another sad wife

Aug 29, 2011
My apologies
by: Tim

To begin with, I'd like to apologize to anyone who has been offended by comments made in this thread. I should have been monitoring the thread more closely. I will be from now on. Thus far all of the comments are intact, and yes I am embarrassed by some of them. I'm still debating on whether to delete the more offensive ones and thus leave holes in the discussion.

This is obviously a topic that generates definite opinions and spirited discussion, both of which are certainly welcome here on Masonsmart. However, name calling and rude behavior is not welcome and will not be tolerated. If you can and will engage in open and frank discussion while respecting the position and opinions of others then please stick around. But, if you want to act like petulant children, take it somewhere else.

There are some valid arguments and points of view in the posts included in this page, and it is my sincere hope that I do not have to remove the entire page due to the inability of some to keep their passions in due bounds.

In short, be civil, be courteous, be respectful, or be banned.

Sincerely and Fraternally,

Tim
GAOTWS

p.s. After further consideration I have removed comments from this thread that I considered to be un-Masonic in nature. Hopefully, the spirit of the discussion remains intact. Thanks to all for your input, but let's keep it civil.
Tim

Aug 30, 2011
Tim
by: Computer Guy

This topic at it's core was going to bring on a heated debate. Though there are those that think women should be allowed into the Brotherhood of free masonry, the vast majority think of it as taboo. This would be the equivalent of trying to convince a democrat to become a republican and vise-versa. In business I was always taught if one knows not the answer to a question or the effect of that discussion before uttering it, then it should not be uttered. Hope this was Civil enough.

Aug 31, 2011
resistance
by: S & I

"The first resistance to social change is to say it's not necessary."
Gloria Steinem

Aug 31, 2011
S&I
by: Computer Guy

I'll make you a deal. You find the largest women only organization in the US, petition them to allow men to join on behalf of MEN everywhere. Get them to accept men as members and equals within their organization and I will do the same with the brotherhood of free masons. Now that it's put this way it does sound kinda odd, doesn't it. A one sided fight only has one outcome. Believe it or not there are organizations that are DISCRIMINATORY toward men but I don't think those doors will be knocked on anytime soon.

Aug 31, 2011
You may be right...
by: Tim

Computer Guy,

That was perfectly civil. Thank you.

Obviously, you're right about this topic generating some heat. My original hope for this thread was that it may be educational for us men to learn the perspectives of the women on the topic, and at the same time perhaps prove therapeutic for the ladies to express their opinions. I still think it can be useful so long as it doesn't denigrate into bickering. That will accomplish nothing and will only serve to scare away anyone considering our organization and it's teachings.

I should note that the comments removed from this thread were made by both men and women. The tone of the discussion was simply getting a little too negative. I appreciate everyone taking it down a notch. Thanks,

Tim
GAOTWS

Aug 31, 2011
okay
by: S & I

Sure computer guy. I would do that. It doesn't bother me in the least.

Aug 31, 2011
S&I
by: Computer Guy

My point being that organization, whatever it might be, would say no we are an organization for women and women only.

Sep 01, 2011
We'll see
by: S & I

I was curious about how women-only groups would respond to the question of allowing men in their club. So, I e-mailed the Junior League and DAR. Those were the only women-only groups I knew. I am eagerly awaiting their responses. If their responses are not in favour of allowing men, I think it's discrimination.

Sep 01, 2011
Organizations
by: Computer Guy

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/245950.html

There are more than this but it's a start. And yes it may be considered discriminatory in nature but that is the way their charters were setup and I, as a man think they should be allowed to have their woman time left to women.

Sep 01, 2011
email
by: Ed Mahoney, PM

Tim:Since in your opinion that I am too negative in responding to these females that are so positive that only their point of view is valid. They believe all men in masonry are bigots and we have no validity in preferring to keep masonry a fraternity. I regret you saw it necessary to remove my post about the female role along with the ACLU to get the courts to order admission to female to organizations like the Lions Club and the Jaycees and others. I think you should re-evaluate what is negativity. I think the forced admissions of females to Freemasonry is a totally negative event and I do not agree that my post were harmful to anyone. least of all to the Fraternity that I have been active in and loved for the last 25 or so years. I stand by what I said, when I took my Master Mason's Obligation..."I will not be present at the making a woman..."

I wish to leave this thread. Unfortunately I get 2 emails every time a new post is made and I have been unable to locate a mechanism to stop them. Perhaps you can stop the emails.


Sep 02, 2011
Sorry Ed,...
by: Tim

Sorry you feel that way Ed, but you don't infer that someone is a 'cretin' and expect your post to remain. Nor is this site a pulpit for political opinion. I have very definite political opinions as well, but this is not the place for them. When we, as Masons, post on a site dedicated to Masonry we are not simply representing ourselves but the entire fraternity. We must hold ourselves to the standards of our obligations and the teachings of Freemasonry. We do our fraternity no good and we accomplish nothing by entering into petty arguments.

There is an un-subscribe link at the bottom of every e-mail you receive. Sorry to see you go.

Fraternally,

Tim

Sep 02, 2011
Unsubscribe?
by: Ed Mahoney, PM

My apologies as well. Does that unsuscribe apply to the entire Masons Mart? I intend to leave only this discussion as I have nothing else to say that applies to this explosive topic. I have made my position clear enough, even if not effectively so.

Sep 02, 2011
I understand...
by: Tim

I understand completely Ed. This is not a discussion that will come to a satisfactory conclusion for anyone, but it is one that must be had.

The unsubscribe link will only remove you from this particular thread. Thanks,

Tim

Sep 03, 2011
DAR & Junior League
by: S & I

So far, no reply from either of these groups on whether or not they would allow males to join. It doesn't really matter because if these groups do not allow people of either gender to join, it is at least mean-spirited and outdated and at most discriminatory. I do believe it goes both ways CG.

Sep 05, 2011
Curious mind of a newcomer
by: Anonymous

I am not a freemason nor have I ever been acquainted with one. I found this blog while researching something that has fascinated me for many years (the disjoint between what is said and what is practiced in American culture). I do see the validity for male only and female only organizations -- as one post said, people sometimes feel more comfortable around their own gender. I also understand what it is like to be told that I can not do something because of my gender.

After reading the posts and doing the research, I do not think gender exclusiion in practice is the viable topic of discussion....
For me, I would venture to ask why the Freemason hierarchy wsa set up as male only inthe first place. Why was there not a seperate but equal faction created -- as is the case with the fraternity/sorority relationship? I would venture to say that it had everything to do with the concept of Ethos... at the time of creation, whte, male, non-disabled or ethnic was the elite power -- those provided with the most education.

As I can see from reading your comments, I would venture to say that we all agree that Education "enlightens" us. At the time within which the building blocks for the Freemason Fraternity was founded, women were not entitled to an equal (or even existent) education as men.

I am very interested in what the Freemasons teach, and I think that a great deal of American values stem from this teaching. With that being said, Fraternal Freemasonry is based on tradition -- tradition rooted in gender class division, in ehnocentricism. As the founders of our nation prepared for, social structures (i.e. organizations) need to hold their ideals in tact but must learn to adjust with the times in order to survive.

From what I have read thus far, Freemasonry is founded on the ideals of equality, charity, "doing unto others as you would have done unto you." It is absolutely understandable that Freemasons want to guard their tradition of male-only membership, but if this is the case, there should be an equivalent "sanctioned" branch for women only. The Eastern Order is for both men and women and the few groups that are women only are not accepted in the United States as valid. This is the real question at hand... Why not? I would venture to say that it is because the Fraternal Structure was founded in the tradition of sexism and gender inequality.

Being a Freemason seems to teach many wondeful things. I will never be able to experience these things as I am a woman. I can research and live by the ideals of the organization, but I will never be permitted authorization to experience the rituals. I am an American, and I think this is okay. Nonethless, if there is to be an exclusively male organization whose purpose is to reach enlightenment and equality, there needs to be an equal female branch... Sanctioned and accepted as different but equal in legitimacy.

Sep 10, 2011
ridiculous by computer guy
by: jacinth

Referring to computer guy's comment titled 'ridiculous' I read something like 'we do not kill (at least not anymore) are you implying that the masons used to kill? If yes, how was it done, physically or otherwise? How am I sure that some lodges don't still indulge in this act. Pls I need to be clarified on this matter

Sep 16, 2011
Jacinth
by: S & I

Hi Jacinth. I cannot say for sure what Computer Guy meant by the remark he made about the masons not killing people anymore. I am speculating that he could be referring to the penalties that masons suffer if they tell the secrets. If a mason tells his Entered Apprentice secret ritual stuff, he is to be buried up to his head in sand at low tide and his tongue ripped out. There are more specific gory details but that's the gist of it. If a mason tells some of the other secrets, they let vultures rip out his eyeballs. Those are all the penalties I can remember from my reading. They will tell you that those penalties just refer to a man being dishonourable and aren't really carried out. My husband is convinced that if he told the secrets, a masonic hit squad would be after him. He's serious.

There is also a true story about a man in Canada who said he was going to publish the masonic secrets. This was in the 1800's. He mysteriously disappeared. Coincidence ? I think not. The masons do not seem to like to talk about these things. Make of it what you will. Since I am not allowed to be a mason, I am sure these statements will be refuted by those in the know.

Dec 23, 2011
Masonic Teachings and Women
by: Tracey Linn

Good evening to you all.

This thread piqued my interest as I am a woman who comes from a Masonic tradition family. Being born into a family with the instruction and teachings of morality(not prescribed or proscribed)shaped me a certain way.

Adaptability to change and tolerance of the beliefs of others are highly valued character traits in the Order (and other spiritual disciplines as well)yet require real inner work to actually achieve. The resultant equanimity is a shining beacon for all in the presence of one who is capable of embodying it.

Truth is available to anyone who seeks it. It's bestowed when the devoted asker is ready, regardless of title, hierarchy, or sex. There is a recognition, if you will, amongst ones who have done the work for one another that transcends the handshakes and signs.

I have never read a Masonic text, nor have I been relayed or sought any information regarding Masonic secrets outside of wondering if a woman could indeed participate in the Order as represented in this thread. But I have met both men and women who emanate the equanimity of which I spoke above... both in the Order and outside of it.

Perhaps the evolution of the Fraternity will come at some point where the sex of a member does not matter. Are we at that point? I do not know. But this I do know: one's personal path of development can be devotedly applied in a variety of ways, and there is a definite positive effect on the family when this is taken on in a meaningful way.

I am grateful that the men in my life who chose a Masonic path were able to find the Order. It creates a space for love and harmony: a place in which many wonderful things can flourish, including the dedicated spiritual development of daughters, granddaughters, wives, sisters, and nieces. Their paths, whether through the Order in the future or hidden in the female tradition of receptivity and inner wisdom are definitely positively impacted.




Jan 03, 2012
Thank you
by: Tim

Thank you Tracey Linn. Very well said and much appreciated.

Jan 05, 2012
My opinion
by: Mary Moody

If there are any grammar mistakes, I'm sorry. My phone is my Internet. I believe men should be allowed their space. How would women feel if their private meetings were infringed upon by men whining about being excluded. Before anyone asks, I am a woman and I respect others beliefs and traditions and in return, I expect the same. If someday, the Freemasons open their doors to women, it will (or should be) because they chose to do so and not forced by law. We aren't just talking about the rights of women, but also of the rights of men. If one wants to be apart of the order, no matter the gender, the best way in would to prove yourself invaluable. If the only reason you're denies is because of a gender, well then that's that fraternity or sororities loss and you keep moving forward to better yourself. Period! Respect one another's beliefs and traditions.

Mary Moody

Feb 07, 2012
men and their space
by: Anonymous

Why do men need their space ? Why do women need separate space ? I don't get it. Why can't everybody just hang out together and not worry about it.

Feb 07, 2012
Personal space
by: Anonymous

Because even I need a girls night out away from the house and family. Must we be joined at the hip?I don't want that! I love that my husband can go play basketball and I can go to the beach with my friends. Everyone needs personal space.

Feb 11, 2012
joined at the hip
by: Anonymous

I guess I feel that way because I grew up with brothers. There were only two girls on our street and they only wanted to do boring stuff. I always did things with my brothers and all the boys in our neighbourhood. I just thought nothing of it.

Feb 14, 2012
sports
by: Anonymous

I play on a women's sports team. We are in our 30's and 40's and are all newcomers to this particular sport. Only in recent years have girls been allowed to play this sport on the same teams with boys. My friend's husband asked if he could come and learn to play with us. He was completely new to the sport also. I thought it was a great idea. Unfortunately, none of the women on my team agreed that we should let him play. I was the one who had to tell him and I felt really awful about it because there was no real reason to exclude him, other than he was male. This is how I feel when the masons exclude women. Just another way to look at it.

Mar 02, 2012
Mary Moodie and Tracy Linn
by: Anonymous

I take exception to points that you have made.

Mary Moodie - You speak of "proving yourself invaluable". Why ? I am invaluable. So are you. We are invaluable simply because we exist. The masons devalue certain people. These are seniors, people with intellectual challenges and women. This part of freemasonry is never mentioned when speaking of how accepting the masons are of everyone. I do not participate in any group or activity that men or anyone else could not.

Tracy Linn (I think) - If you are satisfied to simply be a receptacle, that's okay for you. I find that "role" to be unacceptable.

As I read and learn more about freemasonry, I think "Yeah ? So What ? Doesn't everyone know that ?" I think of freemasonry as a remedial class for men who have reached middle age and find that they have never had a thought of anything other than materialism. Sudddenly, they are closer to death and are becoming afraid of the unknown, of something not of the material world over which they have no control.

If they are truly interested in learning, why have the blind leading the blind ? Many women could tune them into spirituality. I fail to see how the man to whom I am married is ever going to learn anything from a bunch of drunks and womanizers who comprise the lodge he attends.

Mar 02, 2012
Anonymous Mar 02, 2012
by: Computer Guy

I must say your last comment regarding what freemasons are is disturbing. We do not let women join our lodges, that's no secret. We do not however discriminate against intellectually challanged or elderly people. The MASONS are there to help anyone. We have organizations or groups setup to help the elderly as well as the less fortunate. You obvioulsy have no idea what you speak of. Our lodge alone consists of 10 people under the age of 50. The rest of the 20 or so active members are all well into their 70's, 80's, and 90's.

A big part of the masons is spirituality. If you do not believe in a God, you can not join.

As far as Masons being a bunch of drunks and womanizers, I personally have never seen so much as a beer can in our lodge.

I would hope that the moderator removes your last comments about Free Masons. They are nothing more than your ill willed, vindictive, misguided attempt to damage the names of Free Masons everywhere.

Mar 02, 2012
:)
by: Mary Moody

My last name is spelled with a Y and not an IE. MOODY. Learn it!
As far as you go, Computer Guy, you ROCK! I know some men that are Freemasons and they are GOOD men. I only hope my sons grow up to follow in their/your example.

Blessings )O(

Mar 02, 2012
Anon, Anonymous.
by: Tracey Linn

Anonymous,

As you like it.

You have no idea to whom you speak, or have mistaken my words, or do not understand the task of what you offhandedly term a "receptacle". As I was clear in my words I will not take the time to rewrite them in a different way for you to understand them. There's just too much for a "receptacle" to do during the day.

Mar 02, 2012
Mary Moody & Computer Guy
by: Anonymous

There is a fellow who attends my husband's lodge. He cheated on his wife many times and then took up with someone else's wife. Granted the woman was not the wife or daughter of a freemason. I understand that committing adultery with the wife or daughter of a brother is against the rules. Since this man wasn't kicked out, I assume that the wives or daughters of anyone else are fair game. This was not an isolated incident among the lodge members.

If you do not devalue women, the intellectually challenged or "old men in their dotage" then why does it say in the masonic rules that masons will not attend the "making" of these people. Obviously, none of the above are good enough to join your secret, exclusive club.

Every time the man to whom I am married goes to lodge, I fill the pockets of his suit with notes asking him why he discriminates against my gender.

Mar 02, 2012
HI
by: Anonymous

Perhaps you married someone below you. It sounds like a personal problem. This is only others opinions and I watch as others attack those that give their support to gender separation. If your husband truly devalues your feelings, then why do you remain married? It seems to me that you take more time filling out notes to put in his pockets (which I bet he doesn't even read) than you do putting action into your own self and happiness. If that were me, I'd take girls night out when he wasn't at the lodge, leaving him to deal with the children and leave a long to-do lust of household chores to accomplish before your return. It may also drive him crazy, you claiming a life if your own that he takes for granted. Not all men are cheats and liars. Sorry for the woman who was cheated on repeatedly and abandoned for another but at least he's not her headache anymore. He's another woman's headache and she's free to find someone worth her heart. Obviously, the lodge that your husband belongs to is greatly flawed.

Mar 02, 2012
Thanks
by: Anonymous

Many of the men in my husband's lodge are greatly flawed. My husband is a wonderful man. That is why it is hurtful that he seems to want to associate with these men and participate in a gender specific organization. As for the notes, it's just desperation. He asked me if I wanted to see his apron. Of course I refused. Maybe if I knew where it was, I could get rid of it..... ?

Mar 03, 2012
Devalue?
by: Computer Guy

I have read all the rules governing our lodge and taken all the oaths for the same. Not once was I told to devalue people. Nor was I asked to confirm my steadfastness toward that goal. Our oaths are to our families first and then to the masonic code. One makes us a whole person, the other makes us a better person. Ignornace, can be a scary thing and is usually met with half truths and or accusations. I am proud to be a Mason. I will be one for the rest of my life, and I hope my 2 sons follow suit when their time comes.

Now back to the main question of this discussion. Can a woman be a free mason? The answer, plain and simple is NO. That's where this discussion should have ended. A simple question with and even simpler and state forward answer. A personal opinion does not matter nor apply here. End of discussion.

Mar 03, 2012
To computer Guy
by: Anonymous

How would one become a Mason. Not for me obviously. I'm happily situated in my spirituality and coven (I'm a Pagan). I speak of my 2 young sons. If it's something they are interested in when they are older, what do they need to do and if they choose to follow my spiritual path, will that hinder them. You said that as long as members believed in "a God" that one could join. That statement implies to me that it matters not. No one in my family is a Mason and them men I spoke of were in a nursing home for which I once worked at. The tales he told make made me smile but they never revealed Freemason secrets. He had visitors that are apart of the lodge he once belonged (he passed away). He had passes given to him by his doctors to attend meetings in the company of a nurse. George wanted me but it was forbidden and a male nurse took my place, which I respected and had no problem with. So, the age issue is not an issue like anonymous above implied. I respect it because, being apart of a coven, I too have taken an oath. There are secrets that I will never reveal myself. It's embedded in me. For women that want to be a Freemason, during my research on this, I found that there are women's Freemason groups so you should begin there. I only researched it for my sons. Their father has no interest in it so that leaves me.
Computer Guy, at what age is appropriate for a male to begin and, provided my sons want it and having no ties to the Masons themselves, how do they get started. My 8 year old son expressed interest after watching the movie National Treasure. He then began watching the history channel, his interests peaked even more (lol). I will always support my sons in their endeavors. What other requirements must he meet in order to be considered? Any advise you can give me will be appreciated. Any Freemason that can help me with my sons possible future (should the interest hold), I will be grateful for. One more thing, my son is a highly functioning autistic child. He's very smart and extremely trustworthy. He's only in a special class because he's bores to death! He can already do what the teachers are teaching him so he has other teachers to keep him challenged and interested. Would this be a mark against him? I hope not because I'd hate for his dreams to be crushed and it would be the Masons loss because he been described as a prodigy. Talking with him, you wouldn't even know he was autistic.

Mar 04, 2012
computer guy
by:

I think the question should be why aren't women allowed to join ? I have seen the rules about joining freemasonry. They do not allow women, old men in their "dotage", the mentally ill or the intellectually challenged. If you are a mason, you must support this devaluing of these specific groups, even if this was not part of your oaths, because you support these rules. I believe the fellow about whom the nurse above has written was a mason long before he was in his "dotage". As far as the argument that men must have guy time and women must have "girl time", I have just never thought that way. It's just not important to me.

Mar 04, 2012
Computer Guy
by: Anonymous

He is not intellectually challenged or mentally challenged. He has a few quirks but don't we all? His IQ is higher than most adults and will climb as he grows. He's about to turn 8 and knows more about computers than anyone. He remembers everything he reads. A child Einstein. The Masons loss. Not his. As far as George, his father, his grandfather and Greatgrandfather and so on before him were Masons. There's no way they'd disrespect a man with so much knowledge and integrity by leaving him to rot in a home, unforgotten. His sons and grandsons (Masons themselves) saw to that. I suppose it depends on the lodge and the men that belong to it. Just like grocery stores, not everyone carries the same exact products. Some are better than others.

Mar 04, 2012
(BIG SIGH) Where to begin...
by: Tim

It's pretty hard to know whom I am addressing since everyone seems to want to remain anonymous, but here goes.

First off, your son's autism would not preclude him from becoming a Freemason. In fact, he sounds as if he will grow up to become a very interesting man and will be a valuable contributor to whatever he chooses to involve himself in. So long as a man is duly elected by the members of a regular Masonic lodge, can understand the obligations he is taking upon himself, and takes those obligations freely and voluntarily he may become a Freemason.

In most Masonic jurisdictions the legal age of joining is 18 years. However, in the U.S. we have the Order of DeMolay for young men age 12 to 21. I would encourage you to learn more about the Order as the teachings and tenets are in every way Masonic. www.Demolay.org

We do not "devalue" anyone. We promise not to be present at the making of a Freemason of an old man in his dotage. When a man has reached that point, regardless of his age, when his mind is no longer sound he is unable to understand and accept his obligations freely and voluntarily. It would be a diservice to him to accept him into the fraternity knowing him to be such.

As to our aged members, like George, they are to be honored and respected for their accumulated knowledge, wisdom and experience, as well as for their years of service to the fraternity.

A man must be of legal age to become a Freemason. A young man in his non-age is also not prepared to understand and accept the obligations of being a Freemason. It would be irresponsible for us to place that responsibility on a man too young to appreciate or understand what was expected of him.

The requirement to membership regarding our belief in God is that we express an unfeigned belief in God, not a god. There is only one living and true God. Which religion a member chooses and how he relates to God is an individual choice. Freemasonry has nothing to do with that choice. However, our members are encouraged and expected to follow their own chosen religion.

Freemasonry is a system of moral teachings designed to enable a good man to better himself, not materially but spiritually and morally. Its teachings are good, but Freemasonry itself is neither good nor evil; it simply is. It has no inherent power beyond that which we give it. It is what we make it.

Thank you for your kind attention.

Mar 05, 2012
Tim
by: Computer Guy

I was very busy this weekend. As a result I was unable to answer the questions posed to me. Hopefully your responce will bring the much needed answers to some of the questions which have been sought here. Thank You.

Mar 05, 2012
Still one question
by: Anonymous

Women who are of the age of majority, are of sound mind and who are very much able to understand the obligations are not allowed to join. No one has given any reason for this. ( ready for Computer Guy to have a tantrum any time now).

Mar 05, 2012
Perhaps the question is the answer
by: John

"Why do women always want to fix what doesn't need fixin'?"

Leroy Jethro Gibbs

Mar 06, 2012
Jethro Gibbs ?
by: Anonymous

Why can't masons just answer that question ?

Mar 06, 2012
:)
by: Mary Moody

Hey! I'm a woman and I could care less! Inwas only doing research. I have no desire to become a Mason and never will, even if the doors were to open for woman. Besides, I repect traditions, even if other liberals don't. This isn't about equality. Even I need my own special time, whether it's ceremonial or not (like anonymous, I'm Pagan but don't belong to a coven). My group consists of women and men. I'm happy with that. My husband likes to have a beer or two with his brothers occasionally, shoot pool, play basketball, whatever. The point is, while we spend most of our time together, our marriage is strong enough to survive a few hours apart (even days when I'm gone for conferences). Let men have their Masonry. Is it mentally, physically and emotionally hurting women because they're not being let in. No, it's not and if it is, she needs to figure out why it's SO important to want to change the rules. We now live in a society where the few outweigh the majority and it's sad but let me tell you this. Time apart equals better sex, at least for me. Just sayin.' I can argue and argue why Masonic tradition of men should be left alone but it's just not going to agree with those on here that oppose me because it's not what they want to here. If Masonry is really that important to a woman, there are female sects to join. Aren't they GOOD enough? Join theirs. The men have theirs, the women have theirs. No one expects women to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen anymore. We have rights too but at the same time, we can respect certain traditional space. I believe most Mason men are good people. Just let them be who they are. Don't destroy their traditions over pride. That's just one woman's opinion anyway.

Mar 06, 2012
:)
by: Mary Moody

Anonymous, Tim answered the question. It's an age old tradition, that's why. Time to let it go.
*Yawns*
Moving onto another subject without the whiners now.

Mar 06, 2012
Answer
by: Computer Guy

Because its a fraternity not a sorority. As I stated before, find the largest all female organization and petition them to let men join. See how far you get. If women don't have to change their organizations to allow men to join why should it be reversed? Because we are men right? As such, we shouldn't have the same rights or protection as women under our constitution. 99.9% of the people who have died to protect out constitution and freedoms were, dare I say it, MEN. But according to some opinions, we should not be allowed to have an all men fraternity because it's discriminatory and degrading to women. Nobody is ever going to win a battle when the other side can't see past the end of their nose.

Mar 06, 2012
Mary Moody
by: Computer Guy

We do thank you for your understanding and support Mary.

Mar 06, 2012
:)
by: Mary Moody

You bet :D! ^^^^^
To me, it's just not a debate because it's a FRATURNITY! I read all this to my husband and told him that I'm convinced that there are some seriously bitter women out there that want to ruin men. I WANT a man in my bed, not someone forced to do as I say. Not to say I'm submissive. Quite the opposite ;). He and I are equal in our marriage. He asks and I ask before we go about doing things, especially major expenses. It's respect for each other. I respect the men who respect me in return. The woman above that mentions she stuffs her husbands pockets mysifies me. He was more than likely a Mason when they married or was striving to be. If it was such a bother, then why get married? I'm not big on tattoos yet my husband is pretty much covered. I knew this when I married him. Have I tried to change that. NOPE! In fact, he's getting more work done next week. It makes him happy. To take that away would be unfair. It would be like him trying to strip away my spirituality and telling me I have to be Christian or else. Let people be who they are. It's all the same. Freemasons are a fraternity but for those women that desire it, there IS a sorority version that teaches the same values and traditions as the fraturnity. All they have to do is Google it to find local chapters.

Mar 06, 2012
Oversharing ?
by: Anonymous

Thanks for your input Mary. I didn't really need to know about your sex life.

I think people should be able to join any group which interests them, regardless of gender. Why is that so difficult to understand ?

The "tradition" argument is based on beliefs about women, by men, that are outdated to say the least. People used to believe in owning slaves too. Thankfully that lovely tradition was outlawed. So the tradition argument doesn't really address the issue. The question might be stated as why does an organization insist on adhering to beliefs that we now know are wrong ? I think they just lack the guts to say it out loud because they know that they cannot legally bar anyone from joining based upon gender.

I did join the order of the eastern star. It's a boring waste of time. I do have my own things to do away from my husband. There is not one organization with which I am involved that men could not join. That's the morally correct thing to do.

Mar 06, 2012
:)
by: MARY MOODY

I love how you hide behind your anonymity. Look, I can't wait for someone of a male gender to apply to an all girls school or sorority and begin a lawsuit when he's rejected. It'll be all over the news and you, being a hypocrite, will more than likely side for the sorority or girls school sighting, "He only wants to chase tail." It's a double standard. Women fight to join men's groups and usually win, West Point Acadamy comes to mind and the girl manipulated the system because she had a name that fit both male and female. She one her plight and got in, only to drop out a week later because she couldn't handle the rigourous treatment that ALL candidates of that one "only men's school" adhered to. They didn't treat her any less than the men training and SHE complained about it. If you think the Evening Star is boring and a waste of your time, what on earth makes you think you're missing our on at the mens lodges? It sounds like it's all boring to me, but by all means, strip away the freedoms of men, ruining the hopes and dreams of my sons. Turn them all into wimps. And yes, I HAVE A FABULOUS SEX LIFE!!!! I love sharing info ;). This that attack me for it are obviously lacking a real man. Jealous? Stop whining.

Mar 06, 2012
Alexander Road
by: Anonymous

God I love you Mary Moody. Men have their traditions and women have theirs. Men have their fraternities and women have their sororities. Thank God there are still women like you left in the world. I had just about given up hope and vowed to never marry but if she's like you, she'll have my heart. It is a double standard. I will agree women were treated abominably in the past, having no rights but that isn't the case now. Women are strong and I dependent, but most I find want to put a leash on me. My last girlfriend put spyware on my phone because she didn't really believe I was working late. She was wrong. I was working late to earn enough money to buy her a $20,000 diamond engagement ring and needed the extra hours to pay it off but when I found out that she had no trust or faith in me when I never did anything but love her, I broke up with her and used the money to take my dad fishing in Alaska before he died. I also sued her for invasion of privacy and won. She had no right to do that. I figured it all out when she seemed to know every text I was getting. I ha it looked at and sure enough, it was there. Many women are trying to ruin men. Anonymous, don't cut off our balls please. We need them. Mary, keep on rockin' on! You're a fair individual.

Mar 07, 2012
Not really fair
by: Anonymous

If you read the posts, I don't care if a man wants to join a sorority, or DAR or Guides or whatever. If he just wants to get laid by joining a sorority, that would soon become apparent and he would get kicked out for that reason and not just because he's a man. Same for the armed forces. If you can't get through boot camp, then you're out whether male or female. It should be based on ability not gender.

My husband did join the wimps (and cheaters, drunks , substance abusers and woman haters) when he became a mason. If the lodge was supposed to make these guys into better men, they must have been real winners when they started.

Mar 07, 2012
Sad
by: Alexander Roads

You're breaking my heart.

Mar 07, 2012
Not Really Fair
by: Computer Guy

I'll start addressing you by title. Since you won't actually put a name on here which we my address you by.

Your comment "If you can't get through boot camp, then you're out whether male or female. It should be based on ABILITY not gender".

This shows how little you know about fairness. Have you ever heard of gender norming? The military isn't even fair because most women can not keep up with men as a result of physical limitations. Men have to do far more than women do in order to pass their physical requirements to graduate from boot camp. Is that fair? I don't think so but the women that pushed for it do. Women say they have less upper body strength and can't run as fast as men. Thus they have more time to complete their required 2 mile run than men do. They have to do less push ups, sit ups, and pull ups than men do because they are female. It's not equal in my mind and not everything ever will be.

Are you pushing women's organizations to accept men as well, or just puching men's organizations to accept women? Of course you aren't and that's not fair either.

Mar 07, 2012
I'm not pushing anyone
by: Anonymous

I didn't set up the situation in the armed forces that you describe. There should be one standard of achievement. If you cannot reach that, too bad.

I don't belong to any women only groups. I don't think it's right not to include people based on gender.

So back to the question. Why do the masons continue to uphold a "tradition" that is based on past beliefs about women that we now know to be incorrect. Along those same lines, the masons did not include black men in the lodge so they started Prince Hall lodges. Does Prince Hall masonry still exist ? Does freemasonry now allow people of colour when that was not the case in previous years ?

Mar 07, 2012
Alexander Roads
by: Anonymous

Everyone, pack your bags....we're going on a guilt trip (lol).

Mar 07, 2012
I'm not pushing anyone
by: Computer guy

Why do all of the followin women's organizations not allow men to join?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_women's_organizations

And men of African descent are allowed to be freemasons. One of the requirements of being a freemason is you must be free-born. Free Masons as defined were free men, not slaves. They became free masons so they could profit from their trade. Something a slave could not do, therefore they were not allowed to join as slaves. That's where the word free comes from and is a requirement to become a Free Mason. Prince Halls do still exist. However, you can not be a member of a Prince hall and a lodge of free masons. It's one or the other as I understand it.

Mar 07, 2012
Ugh!
by: Mary Moody

I'm sure the Masons have decided to keep their traditions, not based on past perceptions of women, but because they know we're smarter, lol. Sorry guys. I've defended you all this time. You gotta allow me that. Some initiations, use heard or read (depending on the lodge) are done in the nude. If this is true, I'm confident most men wouldn't want their mothers, sisters, wives, girlfriends, and daughters seen in the buff, seeing a bunch of older guys keeling over from a heart attack. I have no problem with the nude thing. I'd drop my robe. I've already done so in ceremonial rites already, (I'm a tree hugging hippy girl) but anonymous, would you drop your robe? Another issue (This was on the History Channel), the men dint want their sisters, girlfriends, wives and daughters under the pursuit of Mason brothers (even though it is forbidden). It opens up too much temptation that can rip lodges and families apart.

*Is this true, Tim and Computer Guy (I've decided to call you John. That's the name I call all men when I don't know their names). what I've heard about. Nude initiations, and the reasons I've stated? I'm sure there is more there in the rule book of the reasons why women aren't to join and I STILL support that. I just want to know if my research is correct. I wanted to compare initiatory rites between the Knights Of Columbus (Hey Anonymous (Jane, I'm going to call you), That's the Catholic Church's version to the Freemasons and it's all men as well), to other sects, including some Pagan groups. It's a project I hope to publish someday years down the road on Witchvox when I have ALL the facts. This is just research and I'll use no names without permission. Also, are gay men allowed to join? That's another question I have. If not, then I feel that's truly discriminatory.

I don't believe the Masons excluding women have anything to do with past perceptions. Women have proven to most societies (with exception to the Middle East), that we are capable of anything and everything. As a woman, I am strong, healthy, kind, loving, truthful, honest, faithful , cunning, charming, beautiful inside and out. I don't care if men have their Fraturnities, groups and clubs. I will not invade myself on that. Some things are better left alone.

Mar 07, 2012
Mary Moody
by: Anonymous

On a different note: This is for Tim and Computer guy. Regarding my research, is there a safe way I can contact you and inquire about Masonic traditions? I'm not asking for secrets to be divulged. I just want to know what your initiatory rites are like. Is there any study beforehand involved and various other things. How does a man with ambitions to be a Freemason, with no contacts, find a path or open door to become one. What are the rules, besides the women issue, etc? What facts are you allowed to divulge. Since this is a forum on women becoming Masons, is there a safe way to contact you? Perhaps you can set up an alternate email so that I can ask you questions as I need to and you can answer if you're permitted to. Would this be doable?

Mar 07, 2012
Mary
by: Computer Guy

I don't know if this will let me post an email address on here or not but here it goes. Contact me at meto49938@hotmail.com. I'll respond to you and give you my office email address.

Mar 07, 2012
No one speaks for Freemasonry
by: Tim

You're certainly welcome and free to research to your heart's content, but please bear in mind that no one speaks for Freemasonry. The history of the Masonic fraternity is verifiable; it's activities since the foundation of the fraternity may be traced and verified. But, Freemasonry itself can not be defined nor quantified. Anything I or Computer Guy or any other Mason or anyone else says regarding Freemasonry is nothing more than opinion and belief. We will state the truth, but it is the truth as we believe and understand it to be. So, you will never get all the facts because Freemasonry uses symbols to communicate its teachings and symbols are open to interpretation.

I'm just saying there are no official statements here or anywhere else regarding Freemasonry.

Mar 07, 2012
:)
by: Mary Moody

I understand completely about symbols. As a Pagan, we have our own and many, are shared between the two sects. It's alchemy, something I know well. All I'm looking for are opinions. The rest I get from books, online sources, etc. I love looking at monuments and seeing the Freemason signatures in the symbols left behind. It's mystifying and beautiful. If all the answers were there for all to know, it would take away from it's Magick.

Mar 07, 2012
Tim
by: Computer Guy

Dang, that was very well stated. Kinda made me chuckle a bit though to see someone put it into words.

Mar 08, 2012
Hello ?
by: Anonymous

So, Could a MASON please answer my question?

Mar 08, 2012
lol
by: Alexander Roads

Excuse me. What was your question again?

Mar 08, 2012
Do any of you fellows have the guts to answer truthfully ?
by: Anonymous

So back to the question. Why do the masons continue to uphold a "tradition" that is based on past beliefs about women that we now know to be incorrect ?

Mar 08, 2012
Mars and Venus
by: Tim

The tradition of the Masonic lodge being reserved to men only is not based on outdated beliefs regarding women. It is based on sound reasoning. The lodge is intended to be a place of peace and harmony. There are fundamental characteristics of men and women that would jeopardize that peace and harmony should the lodge experience be commingled. I think some of the comments on this very page confirm that.

Men are protective and competitive by nature. If my wife and I were in a lodge meeting together and I felt that she were in any way being threatened or disrespected the peace and harmony would quickly come to an end.

Women are smarter than men (yes, we'll give you that one Mary). And, if a woman chooses to do so she can manipulate a man into doing pretty much whatever she wants. This would also not be conducive to the intended peace and harmony of the lodge.

These are just two examples of our fundamental differences that could have the potential of causing strife in a lodge setting. No doubt, there are others. The whole Mars and Venus thing comes to mind.

Should there be women lodges? Why not? I see no reason that women should not have access to the Masonic experience and its teachings, and I see nothing prohibiting women lodges from being formed.

Should the twain ever meet? I think not.

Mar 09, 2012
cop out
by: Anonymous

Well, you just confirmed it. Masons cannot step out of their outmoded belief system. But, at least you had the, dare I say it, gonads, to say it out loud. You are honest bigots. The thing is, women don't need to be protected or defended. I can handle all of that on my own. Your statement also confirms that the masons still believe that women are underhanded and (they can get a man to do pretty much anything)sneaky. I'm sure there are women who are underhanded but no more so than men. In fact, there are masons I know who I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them. Hopefully my husband gets bored with it soon. The lodge will likely close fairly soon anyway because their death rate is way higher than their birth rate.

Mar 09, 2012
Wow
by: Mary Moody

You're a cheerful one. The only person you can blame for your situation is yourself. If he's lying and cheating on you, then why do you stay in a less than satisfactory marriage? Also, wishing death on people, no matter what they are, just shows how bitter you are. If your statements are correct about them the congratulations. You've reached their new low. Do t blame the Masons for your troubled marriage. My advise, seek medical help for depression and get a marriage counselor, quick!

Mar 09, 2012
indifference
by: Anonymous

My husband is a wonderful man. He does not cheat or lie. I do not want the masons to influence him. It breaks my heart to know that he supports archaic bigots such as the masons. I don't wish death on anyone. It's just a fact that the people in his lodge are old and many have died. There are not many new ones joining thankfully. The lodge will eventually have no one left.

Mar 09, 2012
OK
by: Mary Moody

If your husband is a wonderful man, then why are you afraid of outside influence? He's not a child. He's a grown man. This is just my opinion but if feels more like you don't want to share him unless you're apart of everything he's apart of. It feels as though you're very controlling and on the border of obsession. If he's all wondeful, then you have nothing to fear. He's not a bigot for wanting some "me time" by going to his man cave. If you force or manipulate him into giving up something he loves, he'll only resent you for it. What if he played basketball in a league and all the members were men. You'd probably make him give that up too because they're all bigots, right (if you can't play)? My husband is in a league. Sometimes I go watch his games but most often, I enjoy my space and LOVE that he's having a good time without me. Our marriage is strong because we have our own lives apart from it. After his lodge meetings, he comes home tonyou, right? He loves and cherishes you, right? I'll tell you what.....Rather than pressuring him to give up Masonry, why don't you plead your case for him finding a more respectful lodge with other good men like him. That maybe an argument you can win. Also, make friends with the other wives. Go to Hawaii without them. Leave them at home with all the duties of household chores and kids. My husband and I are equals. He has basketball, nights out with his brothers (If they drink too much I have to go and get their drunk @$$es, yelling at them not to upchuck in my car), he goes and gets his tattoos. When he gets home for work, he takes over with the kids (even though he's exhausted) so I can study to further my spiritual growth. Monday nights, I go to Pagan meet-ups. He can't come because somebody needs to stay behind for the kids but I don't ever hear him complaining that he can't come. While men are not excluded, it's primarily female. His happiness is as important to me as my own and vise versa. That's a truly happy marriage. The Freemasons are not bigots. They are just men. Flawed because they are human but the majority are good people. You're opinion is unfair because it's based on your own emotional experiences and that of the other women of your husbands lodge. That lodge is greatly flawed and therefor, will unlikely last. I hope you'll finally be happy when your husband isn't anymore because he'll have lost something that you'll undoubtedly celebrate an I hope your wonderful husband sees how happy you are.

Mar 09, 2012
Mary
by: Anonymous

My husband does other stuff with guys. I don't care. He's away for a week at a time. No problem. I just don't like the masons. They don't accept women for reasons that are wrong and that imply that adding women necessarily equals conflict. Our marriage was stable and happy until he found the masons. I've given six years. That is when our youngest will go away to school. If he hasn't at least stopped attending or quit by then, we're done. Then he can happily be with the masons.

Mar 09, 2012
Mary Moody
by: Anonymous

There's nothing worse than giving ultimatums. Good luck with that but why wait to toss away a wonderful guy. Do it now and spare him 6 more years of wasted time so he can find a wonderful woman that will, not only have faith and trust in him, but not serve him a lifetime serving of guilt and ultimatums with notes in his pockets. I have single friends looking for a great man. Send him my way when you're finished with him and I'll introduce them. She's in an all femal coven so she won't have any problems accepting him as a Freemason. She's beautiful, young, smart and magickal. We live in the Los Angeles area so give him a heads up about her. Just so you know, a good man, a once in a lifetime love is difficult to come by so I'd think twice before tossing him in the trashcan over the Freemasons.

Mar 09, 2012
no ultimatum
by: Anonymous

It's not an ultimatum. It's just fact. We are responsible for raising our child to adulthood. Like I said, I am hopeful he'll be bored with the masons before too long. They never do anything at his lodge. Right now he's in the honeymoon stage with it. That won't last.

Mar 10, 2012
Computer Guy and Prince Hall
by: Anonymous

Evidently, Prince Hall was a free man living in Boston and not a slave. He was denied entry into masonic lodges in Boston because he was black and the lodge members were racists. I see those incorrect beliefs have changed (or have they ?)

Mar 10, 2012
Anonymous Prince Hall
by: Computer Guy

To join a lodge you must be a MAN and FREE born. I was not around in 1807 and know not the circumstances governing his denial into the Freemasons. Remember history is written by the victors. We have no laws or edicts denying admittance based on race, color or creed. One question I have is when your husband joined his lodge, were you not interviewed with him and asked if you had any problems with him joining the lodge and becoming a Freemason? You had your chance to say you did not support him and he would have been denied admittance at that point. A man can not become a Freemason without the full support of his family and spouse. So if you knew the requirements to become a Freemason and accepted them at the time, what has so drastically changed in your life to cause you to hate the Freemasons?

Mar 10, 2012
Computer Guy
by: Mary Moody

She's possessive. Thats all. Look at the past submissions she's made to the page and it's all mapped out. I feel that it's a ruse using the whole, "It's because woman are excluded" thing which is why I am not going to acknowledge her anymore. If only her husband could see this. "Drop out or else" mentality of the woman he loves. He doesn't cheat or lie. He's a good man. She doesn't like him going to his man cave even though it makes him happy and feel important and she'll only be happy when/if the lodge dies. He'll be unhappy but she'll be happy. That's all that matters to Jane, the anonymous. I feel bad for such a wonderful man, father and husband.

Mar 11, 2012
computer guy (I guess not Mary)
by: Anonymous

To answer your question Computer Guy, no. Nobody from the lodge came to interview me. I didn't know what being in the masons entailed until I looked up everything online and took out books from the library on the subject. If I had known all this crazy ritual stuff and bigotry against an entire gender, I would have raised objections.

FYI Mary, he has several "man caves" that he attends. Those do not bother me. The masons however, do. I did not give any ultimatums. If he wants to continue in the masons, fine. For me though, it isn't fine and at this point, I don't believe I can live with it. I am just being honest with myself and my husband. Just because I am not like you, doesn't mean I'm bad. Just because my husband wants to be in the masons, it's not bad or good. It's just something I can't live with.

Mar 15, 2012
New science supports ancient Masonic tradition
by: Tim

In a similar discussion, "Women allowed in Freemasonry?" I attempted to explain my own reasoning for preserving the segregation of the sexes when it comes to the Masonic Lodge. I basically said that I thought it was a good idea because when women are around men become idiots. Well, now there's scientific evidence to back me up. A new article from Scientific American about a very recent study explains it much better than I can:

"Why Interacting with a Woman Can Leave Men "Cognitively Impaired""

To quote from the conclusion of the article:

"Overall, it seems clear that whenever we face situations where we’re particularly concerned about the impression that we’re making, we may literally have difficulty thinking clearly. In the case of men, thinking about interacting with a woman is enough to make their brains go a bit fuzzy."

So, it's not an anitquated tradition after all. It's science.

Mar 15, 2012
abstract
by: Anonymous

I had a few minutes so I looked up the abstract for the research mentioned above . It can be viewed on scottbarrykaufman.com. The thing I noticed about the sampling of research groups was that the mean age was 21. I would be curious to know the mean age of the members of a typical masonic lodge.

The research found that a male's performance on the Stroop test (see Tim's article) after being told that his responses on a lip reading test (fake)would be monitored by a woman, were much lower than a male being monitored by a male or that of a female being monitored by either gender.

The reason given for these results is that when someone is trying to make a good impression on another, it's too much for the brain to perform well on a test at the same time. Making a good impression it seems, taxes the brain's available resources.

So, the researchers cited research that suggests that males, even if they have no information about a woman, will spend their brain's resources on finding a potential sex partner. There was also research cited (Baumeister, DeWall, Ciarocco & Twenge, 2005), (Wan&Sternthal, 2008) that men do not engage in impression management if it does not seem worthwhile or if the female has low mate value (Wilson&Daly, 2004).

I would question the value of this research applied to the masonic lodge on the basis of age. I really doubt that the mean age of men in a lodge is 21. I don't think a man of 60 would be as hot for a sex partner as the average 21 year old male and therefore not as engaged in impression management.

I work with men who are in their mid to late 20's. I also work with many young (beautiful)women of that same age. The men do not fall all over themselves, forget what they are doing or fail do do their work. Either they are not engaging in impression management or are better at it than the men in the research.

I wonder if there were gay men in a masonic lodge who were in the closet, would they be unable to concentrate if they were engaging in impression management in looking over the other males for potential sex partners ?

It would appear from other research that if men see that impression management is not worthwhile, they do not engage in it. So, if they knew ahead of time that there was no possible chance with women masons, would they be able to concentrate on "the craft" ?


Apr 09, 2012
just looking for knowledge
by: K A

In Reading these posts I have come up with a question that is not answered. I was told that the free masons were based on the fundamental teachings of Christianity. And if a free mason must believe in one god then how can he be discriminatory toward women because god obviously is not. Please know one get angry this just doesn't make any sense to me.

Apr 09, 2012
Reply to last.
by: Mary Moody

It isn't based on Christianity. One must believe in "a" God. The Knights of Columbus is based on Christianity and they're apart of the Catholic Church which does not support the Freemasons. If you're a Catholic, you're not allowed to be a Freemason because the Catholics forbid it.

Am I correct, Computer Guy? :).

Apr 09, 2012
Mary
by: Computer Guy

That is correct. The Pope does not allow Catholics to be members of the Freemasons.

Apr 09, 2012
Still looking for knowledge
by: K A

I just find all of this so interesting. Is the catholic church opposed to this because the free masons are supposed to believe in "a god" It doesn't matter what god? And why do the free masons require thier members to believe in " a god"? Again please do not take offense to this questions I just have no knowledge!

Apr 09, 2012
Freemasons believe and trust in God - not "a god"
by: Tim

There is only one God. A man must express an unfeigned belief in God, not "a god", before he can be made a Freemason. Moreover, the question is not simply do you believe in God, but in whom do you put your trust. So, a man must not only believe in God, but must place his faith and trust in Him.

The question gets complicated because of the different religions. Freemasonry is not a religion. It does not espouse any particular religion. It requires of its members a belief and trust in God, and beyond that every member is encouraged to practice the religious doctrine of their choice.

We have many members who are of the Catholic religion. I am not Catholic myself so I don't know the current state of the Church's position toward Freemasonry. I do know, however, that the trouble between the two began early in the 14th Century with Pope Clement V and the Knights Templar. According to the accepted version of history the Knights Templar had become very wealthy and powerful; King Philip IV of France needed money and colluded with Pope Clement V to take them down and confiscate their wealth. Among other things, the Pope issued a Papal Bull saying no Catholic could be one. Over time the history of the Knights Templar and the Freemasons became intertwined until a lot of people, even some Freemasons, believed they were the same. The law declared by the Papal Bull came to include Freemasons and Catholics were taught that Freemasons were bad guys. Some devout religious followers believe what they are taught and don't ask questions. Those who do ask questions often times go on to become Freemasons, but they remain devout followers of their religious faith.

Apr 09, 2012
Tim
by: Computer Guy

That's not totally correct. I am not a what one would consider a christian. When I joined I was asked if I believe in God. I said not in the way most people think of God nor a God. I stated I believe in a higher power that governs all things upon this earth. That was all I had to say in order to become a Freemason. There are hindu's buddists, followers of islam, and many other religions that are allowed to become Freemasons. Not just those who believe in Christian based God.

Apr 09, 2012
God is God
by: Tim

Where did I say that God is Christian? God is God. Call Him whatever you like, God, Allah, Bhudda, Great Architect of the Universe, the wind beneath my wings. It doesn't matter what name you give Him. You stated that you "believe in a higher power that governs all things upon this earth." That is God.

Our minds are not capable of comprehending the true nature of God, and by the very act of trying to understand Him within the limits of our intellect we are limiting Him. You're still stuck on Religion. Freemasonry has nothing to do with Religious doctrine. You have to look beyond the God of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Bhuddism, and all the other Religions and realize that they are all the same God.

Apr 09, 2012
Tim
by: Computer Guy

I was just clarifying your response there is only one true God. A god, in Christian religion would be anything other than God. Therefore a belief in a god holds true here, since a Christian doesn't recognize any other god nor do any other religions across the board. If they did we wouldn't have wars in the name of God.

Apr 09, 2012
Tim
by: K A

You have been very helpful! Here's another question for you. What's up with the secrets? If any secrets were to be told what could be the harm? In my life time secrets people kept always turned out to be hiding something bad. Am I right in assuming these secrets just deal with pride and honor of your members? Thanks again for answering my questions.

Apr 09, 2012
Pluralism has no place in Freemasonry
by: Tim

To say that Freemasonry requires belief in "a god" infers an acceptance that there is more than one. Pluralism has no place in Freemasonry. But, perhaps it's the word, "God" that causes the confusion as it is most often associated with the Christian Religion. So, let's call Him/Her Omni, instead.

Omni is all around and within everything; Omni is the basic principle from which all things come, and to which all things go. Omni is the supreme intelligence, creator and governor of all there is. Omni is unlimited, immortal and unimaginable.

How a person relates to Omni; which Religion he/she chooses to follow has no bearing in Freemasonry. That's why it's called religious tolerance and why we do not discuss religion in our meetings. It is divisive and as you say, CG, wars have been fought in His/Her name. But in truth those wars were, and continue to be, fought due to religious fanaticism.

Perhaps a better question is why must a man express an unfeigned belief in God/Omni before he can be made a Freemason?

Apr 09, 2012
To K A regarding Masonic Secrets
by: Tim

Hello K A,

I'm glad you've found this discussion useful.

Regarding Masonic secrets and what would happen should someone reveal them, here is a link to another page on Masonsmart where we attempted to answer that very question. I hope you find it useful, as well.

What happens if Freemasons secrets are revealed?

May 25, 2012
Let it go
by: F.A.T.A.L.

I am a Eastern Star and I love my organization with everything that is in me. You want to cry about why the Lodge of Free Masonry is closed to you. The answer is because it is. It would be one thing if there was not a sister organization btw the fact of the matter there is and that should be good enough for you. If it's Mother's then you don't Deserve to be apart of my organization. You want to change the rules f something that has been around longer than you've been breathing ask yourself thus question What Sense Does That Make? I don't see you going out of your way to be the only female in a all male faternity i.e. Omega phi psi or any of those right? Just let my brothers have what they have every right to have abduction continue to chose who they want to be a part if their organization. Love you Bruh

May 26, 2012
Thank you Sister...
by: Tim

Thank you Sister F.A.T.A.L.
You comments and your sentiments are most welcome, and thank you for visiting Masonsmart.

Fraternally yours,

Tim

May 27, 2012
OES
by: Anonymous

I belong to OES. So , F.A.T.A.L., I guess that makes us sisters. I do believe that OES was started to placate wives, daughters and sisters of masons who were interested in freemasonry. It was started from a man's view of what an ideal woman should be, during the early stages of the 20th century. Thankfully, most women find this 'ideal" confining and unnecessary. Put simply, OES is not good enough for me. OES chapters are closing because they are no longer relevant.

I have given up. If the masons wish to be misogynists, I guess that's their choice. It angers me that they make themselves out to have such high morals and ideals, when in fact discrimination based on race, colour, religion of GENDER is immoral. Why would I wish to hang out with misogynists and hypocrites ?

In my spare time, I am studying sacred geometry independently. I am learning a great deal more than my husband, who thinks it's okay to belong to a group of hypocritical misogynists.


Jun 29, 2012
i am 18 year Old can i Join?
by: shadrack

Well i am 18years old and i want to Join the Freemason Court But what will i do to became a Freemason...well i also have 19years Old brother who also want's to Join the Freemason Court and i will be Much Glad and happy to get to Join it,

Jul 06, 2012
Why ?
by: Anonymous

Why would you want to join ? You can learn all their beliefs from books. Then you don't have to become a woman hater unless you are one already.

Jul 06, 2012
To Anonymous
by: Computer Guy

I guess sororities are all men haters then.

Jul 09, 2012
sororities
by: Anonymous

I told you. I don't see the point of sororities either. I have never belonged to one. I have no idea. Perhaps women who belong to sororities are man haters. I just don't get the point of all female or all male groups based on .... well pretty much nothing.

Jul 10, 2012
Anonymous
by: Computer Guy

I think inner peace and harmony might be more of what you are looking for. That can be obtained anywhere and not just through the Freemasons.

You want to be break down the walls of a fraternity that is based upon (in your own words) NOTHING. What would you have to gain by doing so? What would your purpose be in joining a lodge if it is based on NOTHING. What would you expect to accomplish and how would you go about accomplishing NOTHING. I've never once had a day where I have accomplished NOTHING. Never had a meeting where we've accomplished NOTHING. Never had a volunteer day where we've accomplished NOTHING. The people we help through the year don't look at us like we are NOTHING. If you have NOTHING, want NOTHING, and expect NOTHING, what do you actually get? EVERYTHING!!!!! I hope you find peace and harmony. Good luck to you.

Jul 10, 2012
what ?
by: Anonymous

I mean that excluding women from a group, namely the masons, is based on nothing more than the fact that we are women. That's stupid. I came to that conclusion some time ago. If that is what masons believe then I do not want anything to do with them. To me, they are haters. And yes, blah, blah, we support charities, blah, blah, whatever. Well guess what ? I support many charities. I have chosen a career in which I work closely with people, assisting them in any way I can to improve their own lives and in turn, the lives of others. Masons most certainly do not have the market cornered on loving kindness.

Jul 11, 2012
Anonymous
by: Computer Guy

Why do you single out the Masons? Did I not ask you many posts ago to contact women only organizations and get them to let men join? How is that task going for you? I really hope you can find your inner peace and harmony. It's great to have it and makes our time on this earth a little bit better.

Jul 11, 2012
Peace and harmony ?
by: Anonymous

What would you know about peace and harmony ? As I've stated, I do not believe the Junior League or DAR are any better than the masons for excluding people of either gender who wish to participate. I sent questions and received no responses. I do not hold those groups in any higher regard than I do the masons.

Jul 11, 2012
Anonymous
by: Computer Guy

I am still a Freemason and will always be one. At this point women can't be FreeMasons. That gets under your skin so bad as to make you a hater of an entire organization. Are you any better than the organization you call haters for your obvious distain towards a group of so called women haters? Look inside yourself before you pass judgement upon others.

Jul 11, 2012
evidence
by: Anonymous

The evidence is right there. Masons do not want women in their group because they are women. You and the rest of the masons may not believe you are haters of women. I am sure you love women as long as they agree with you and support your views. I don't hate the masons. My husband is one. I love him. I just do not agree with the belief he has agreed to by joining the masons. I do not agree with the masons banning women from their group. As such, I do not support any masonic activity in which my husband is involved. I have quit OES because they support what I view as misogyny.

Jul 11, 2012
Anonymous
by: Computer Guy

Does your husband love you? Does he require you to believe the way he does? Does he require you to support his beliefs? If so, that is not what being masonic stands for. If it vexes you so much that he is a Freemason, and a member of the he man woman haters club, he has an obligation to leave the Freemasons for his families benifit. Have you taken your concerns to the WM of his lodge? If not you should and he would be required to leave the lodge. However, that would probably have far reaching consequences for your relationship with him. It's ultimately your choice as to whether he is a Freemason, not his, as it is written. Would you mind giving us his lodge number so we can get this matter cleared up for you? I am sure the lodge already knows your feelings but has not had a formal request to have him removed? Please advise.

Jul 11, 2012
GET OVER IT!
by: Mary M

You have serious self esteem problems if you hate the Freemasons that much and your husband is the problem, not the Masons, btw. You're insecure. Get a divorce then and move on.

Jul 11, 2012
like button
by: Computer Guy

We need a like button on here.

Jul 11, 2012
Marital problems
by: Mary M

Seriously. The Masons have nothing to do with your marital problems. You need to look within instead of blaming a 3rd party. I suggest heavy duty marital counceling and if he resisted, then you'll see the true man you married. The Mason's didn't change him anymore than they can change the spots on a leopard. These are deep seeded issues that have always been within him that are now just coming to the surface. If he devalues your feelings that much, then he's not that great if a guy, is he? You're not a victim. You're an accessory to your own misery. You may want to think about individual therapy also to help you with the esteem problems you're having. Take the leash off your husband because the more you resist his desire to be a Mason, the more you're going to get dragged along the asphalt.

Good luck!

Jul 11, 2012
Hmmm.......
by: Anonymous

CG, you jumped into this conversation simply because I questioned another contributor about why he was so enthused about joining an organization that does not allow people of either gender. In my view, this is misogyny because this group very simply disallows people of female gender for no universally agreed upon reason. I have been given many theories on the reasons why people of both genders are not welcome, but no actual, fact-based reason. That tells me that the real reason is misogyny. So, be that as it may, I have no intention of attempting to "break down the walls of a fraternity". It's not worth my time or effort. I believe the actions of the masons, in regards to gender-specific membership to be wrong and am voicing my beliefs. If you get your gitchies in a knot over what I believe, oh well.

Marital problems. Well, they were just the usual that every married couple has until the masons came on the scene. It's annoying that my husband doesn't understand why his participation in this group is hurtful but I've come to realize that white males really have had no experience with the glass ceiling or gender bias. I am expecting him to understand something that as a white male, he's never had to experience. This may be the same for you CG.

As for contacting the so-called WM, I did contact the super, giant WM of the entire thing expressing my belief that membership based on gender was wrong. Funny, he didn't respond. Anyway CG, you seem very anxious to cause people and/or lodges to be kicked out when they are supposed to be your brothers and you profess to love them. So which is it ? Do you love them or wish to cause them distress? Getting my husband kicked out would make him unhappy. I am patient. Sooner or later, he will tire of his "brothers". It's just a waiting game. Right now, he has enough sense not to ask me to help him with anything the lodge does or ask me to attend any events.

Mary, I do appreciate you diagnosing me with self-esteem issues. Very helpful. Please let me know of the qualifications that assisted you in reaching this diagnosis. Are you a registered psychologist ? Perhaps a social worker ? Please share your curriculum vitae with me. Of course I would want you send me your bill for sharing your expertise.

Jul 12, 2012
White males?
by: Mary M

You must also be a rasist to empahasize "white males." Also, I have no degree but have plenty of friends that hit the roof when their husbands go to a friends house their Fantasy Football without them because it's a "no wives allowed" night. They tried it, but certain wives wouldn't let their husbands do their thing. It doesn't take a degree to see a manipulator.

Jul 12, 2012
Not racist.
by: Anonymous

I am NOT a racist. It is a fact that males, particularly white males, are not usually treated in the same way that females or people of colour are treated.
So, you are not qualified to diagnose anybody with anything. Let me let you in on a little secret. Your circle of friends is not a large or varied enough sampling group to come to 5% statistical significance that proves your theory. Besides, I don't think anybody at the football party whatever is going to meet some guy's wife at the door and deny her entry to the house as would happen at the lodge.

Jul 12, 2012
Anonymous
by: Computer Guy

My point is that if you are unhappy with your husband being a Freemason, he should not be one. If you have expressed your unhappiness to him regarding his membership, he has an obligation to you, his family, to leave the lodge. If he is not doig so, he is in direct violation of the oath he took and is not a true Freemason. You need to contact his WM, not the grand master. If you have not done so that is on you. Your unhappiness is not healthy and your husband should be removed or leave the lodge on his own accord. I know I would if my wife asked me too.

Jul 12, 2012
Lol
by: Mary M

Rasist.........

Jul 12, 2012
Wrath
by: Mary M

For you to act out in a way at my last just supports my theory. You're the type that's like this: "If I can't do it than neither can you." You're also the type that's ruining men. Does your husband have to hold your purse for you while you try on clothes?

Jul 12, 2012
Rasist ?
by: Anonymous

I looked up the word "rasist" in the dictionary. I couldn't locate the word "rasist" or its meaning so whatever a "rasist" is, I'm not one. If you mean the word "racist", then yup, you got me Mary. I'm a big old, Hitler-loving, skinheaded neo-nazi. That's likely why I'm so passionate about gender equity.
Shopping ? I don't shop for clothes. I make my own, out of hemp, that I grow myself. That's right, this big old neo-nazi attends white supremecist rallies wearing homemade cannabis clothing. Oh and the purse I force my husband to hold ? Yup ! That's right ! My own hemp creation ! Well, that's when he's allowed to go to the rallies with me because, you know, if it's a rally for the female big old Hitler-loving neo-nazis, then he's not allowed in..... because he has a penis instead of a vagina.
How is the watching Dr.Phil psychology degree going for you ? Got any more in-depth diagnoses for me ?

Jul 12, 2012
CG
by: Anonymous

I'd love to be a fly on the wall if your wife ever did ask you to leave the lodge.

Jul 12, 2012
Now I understand!
by: Mary M

You're a " free love" hippy (lol). Are you also smoking the hemp because if not, you should? It may enable you to relax a little bit. You're extremely high-strung! Relax, take a deep breath, live and let live. You should follow Computer Guy's advise and get your husband kicked out of the lodge. "You're patient?" If that were the case, you wouldn't be taking out all your anger and frustrations out on everyone else like you ate CG. Believe me, he would leave the lodge if his wife asked him. He's become a friend of mine and has a lively family but his wife is NOT like you. Oh no! She's BETTER! She understands her husband's aspirations. She would never ask him to that. That's the type of marriage where one respects the others beliefs. I'm married to a man like that. He goes and plays basketball, hangs with his brothers and I go to Pagan school and coven meetings. We have our lives apart at the same time that we are united. It's what's inside the heart. Too bad yours doesn't work like that. It's "Me Me Me" with you, isn't it. Like I said before. I have a few singe friends looking for a great man so when you decide to kik yours to the curb, give him a shout out for me. My single friends are young, fit, Pagan (so they'll understand his desires to be a Mason) and they'll rock his world. Send him out to Cali when you're ready to be a cat lady.

Jul 13, 2012
Anonymous
by: Computer Guy

If my wife ever was to ask me to leave the lodge I would without question. That is my obligation to my family. I love my wife and 2 boys. I would do anything for them. My obligation to the Freemasons does not supersede that of which I owe to my family. Please give me his lodge number so I can make you happy once again.

Jul 13, 2012
Wow !
by: Anonymous

CG, you are without a doubt the best guy in the world ! You have convinced me ! So, I don't know the current lodge poohbah but I could talk to my uncle about it. He's about the only other person in the lodge that I trust. If I do that, you won't have to throw one of your beloved bros under the bus as you appear to be just itching to do.

Mary, I think I know the friend of whom you speak. The one you think should date my husband when I become the crazy cat lady ? I think her name is Hermione ? She's friends with Ron and Harry ? Yeah, I agree. She's young and magickal.

Well, time for hemp harvest. Oooh ! I see a couple of new cats are out on the deck. Here kitty.......

Jul 13, 2012
Anonymous
by: Computer Guy

I am not trying to be mean here. It's not about throwing a brother under a bus. Your husband took a vow with you when he married you. He took an oath when he joined the Freemasons. That oath does not come before his country, his God, or his family. He has an obligation to you. That's all I am saying but for some reason you seem to think I am being mean and vindictive regarding this. It's pretty serious if his being a Freemason is affecting your relationship with him and he shold step away from the Freemasons. You have stated before that you were going to divorce him at some point. I think his relationship with you is much more important than his belonging to the Freemasons.

Jul 13, 2012
CG
by: Anonymous

I will tell him the marriage vow trumps the blood oaths. Really, all kidding aside, he just really doesn't understand. He goes to lodge because he believes he is doing a good thing. In all other respects, we get along famously. If I got him kicked out, he would lose face with the other guys. I wouldn't ever hurt him like that. We live near a small town, and he sees these people regularly. I know they shouldn't give him a rough time, but knowing them, they probably would. It's better to say nothing and ignore it. I'll just let him get tired and bored with it on his own. Hey, it only took me 2 meetings to get bored at the eastern star:)

Jul 13, 2012
Ha ha ha. Your call sign is Hemp Lady
by: Mary M

Since you want to trash my faith, the gloves are off. Her name is Anna! She's blonde and beautiful, kind and compassionate and moat importantly, respects another's space and belief values, which you clearly do not. Are you this intolleramt towards Jewish and Muslims, Hemp Lady?!? You've alredy indicated your intolerance to "White Males," you hypocrite! You are a liar and the only reason you're running away is because I've got your card. You're a child!!!

Jul 13, 2012
Hemp Lady
by: Mary M

You didn't understand, nor appreciate, the significance of marriage vows when you said "I do," did you?
"For Richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, for better or worse." The for better or worse part, you've failed your husband. Do him a favor and leave him, or kick him out. I can't imagine transplorting an entire garden of cannabis!

Jul 13, 2012
Hemp Lady
by: A.R.

If you get along famously with him, then why all the discord.l? I'd like to jump into this conversation, if I may. I'm addressing you as Hemp Lady because there are already too many as anonymous. You seem to contradict yourself a little. I've read through all the comments and you wrote that things were great until the Masons, indicating marital trouble, and then in your last, you say you get along famously. So either you're the one with issues or you're fibbing a little bit in order to attack and blame the Masons for anything because you don't like that it is a gender specific group. There are a lot of them out there, including "Woman Only" groups. Why make this such a big deal? You're making no sense. I'm seeing 360 degrees on your part. First, you complain about your husband and then worry about what other might think if he gets kicked out of the Masons. I think you love him, he loves you, but you can't stand the fact that he's doing things that don't include you. That's not fair nor is it right. You should both respect each others individual space. Also, if you're waiting for him to tire of the Masons, you'll be waiting a very long time. You said it's a small town where, most likely, everyone knows everyone. Like a little Mayberry. Small towns, while charming as they maybe, leave little to do for entertainment or anything. I know this because I was born and raised in a small town where cow tipping and taking a baseball bat to mailboxes while speeding down the unlit, dirt roads are the norm for the youth. The kids probably raid your canninas garden. I know I would if I was a kid again looking for something to do. Anyway, what's left for adults to do? Bingo couples games? How many times are you going to go and see the same movies over and over again. How long will it take before he tires of eating apple pie at the local diner? The Masons have offered him something different. Want to make him happy? Buy some lingerie (and please don't make it out of hemp) and seduce him heavily with love and lusty desires. Also, stop your nagging. It doesn't help your marriage if you're wagging your tongue at him as he walks out the door. That'll just make him want to leave even more to escape it.

Jul 13, 2012
Perspective
by: Tracey Linn

In the immortal words of Mel Brooks, "What in the Wide World of Sports is going on here?!" If it smells, looks, and acts like trolling, it is.

From the esteemed Urban Dictionary, here is a definition. Aquaint yourselves. Knowledge is power.

"Trolling

The art of deliberately, cleverly, and secretly pissing people off, usually via the internet, using dialogue. Trolling does not mean just making rude remarks: Shouting swear words at someone doesn't count as trolling; it's just flaming, and isn't funny. Spam isn't trolling either; it pisses people off, but it's lame.

The most essential part of trolling is convincing your victim that either a) truly believe in what you are saying, no matter how outrageous, or b) give your victim malicious instructions, under the guise of help.
Trolling requires decieving; any trolling that doesn't involve decieving someone isn't trolling at all; it's just stupid. As such, your victim must not know that you are trolling; if he does, you are an unsuccesful troll.

Signs that your trolling is succesful:
*Your victim screaming in all-caps at you.
*Personal attacks (Calling you a retard, idiot, etc).
*Being an Internet Tough Guy.
*Making a crude remark, before quickly logging off before you can retort.

Signs that your trolling is unsuccesful:
*Your victim identifying you as a troll.
*Identifying yourself as a troll.
*Your efforts being ignored.
*Being counter-trolled (See below)

Counter-trolling (Or reverse trolling) is an effective method of redeeming yourself after being trolled. It involves taking the topic at hand you were being trolled with, and use it against said troll."

Jul 13, 2012
Whoa Mary !
by: Anonymous

Yeah. I told you. I'm a hemp-wearing, neo-nazi. You got my number. Good for you ! I have to go tend to the cats now.

Jul 14, 2012
AR
by: Anonymous

We get along very well in all other respects except the mason part. I don't need to go with him to everything. I have other things to do. So does he. I just do not support his participation in what I consider to be a group that views women as inferior to men. That's it.

Jul 14, 2012
Masons
by: Mary M

Well Hemp Lady, we'll have to agree to disagree. I support the age old tradition of Masonry. I feel that (the men) deserve to keep it "Men only." This group has existed long before you and I ever did. It's not going to change because you and others like you feel the way you do. Live and let live. Also, stop complaining about it.

Jul 15, 2012
Mary
by: Anonymous

I'm not trying to be a smarta** . Why do you think women deserve less or different than men ?

Jul 15, 2012
earlier post
by: Anonymous

I came across an earlier post of yours Mary. You were asking about the masonic initiation. You may be interested in a book I am currently reading. It's by Robert Hewitt Brown. He wrote it in the 1880's but it is back in print. He was a 32nd degree Scottish rite freemason. It is about masonic symbols. You may already know about all this because you are a pagan but it is news to me. It contains a forward by Jordan Maxwell. The masons probably hate him because he questions their motives and as I've discovered, they lose their sh#& when anyone questions their traditions. The book is available for download on amazon.

Jul 15, 2012
title
by: Anonymous

The title is Stellar Theology and Masonic Astronomy.

Jul 20, 2012
real question
by: Anonymous

Maybe the real question to answer here is why not share this "progressive science" with everyone ? If freemasonry is so great, why not shout it from the rooftops ? If freemasons wish to be so helpful to people in need, why not share all their knowledge with the masses ? Surely if it makes supposedly good men better, it would make society as a whole better for knowing what freemasons know. If freemasons were to do so, then everyone else would not be "profane". Do you fellows just like to lord it over on everyone else that you know some secret that the rest of us don't ? Come on ! Spill it so that we can all be "better".

Jul 20, 2012
Anonymous
by: Computer Guy

You know you have lost an arguement when sarcasm is your only recourse. Everything about the freemasons can be found on the net. You just can't be an active member of a lodge.

Jul 21, 2012
no, seriously
by: Anonymous

No. I was just wondering why all you fellows don't vote on it. I mean, it's not like anyone will burn anyone else at the stake for adhering to a set of beliefs. The fundamentalist Christians hate the masons anyway, so, it's not like you will lose supporters in that camp. What is available on the internet is just the ritual and the "loyal order of water buffalos" handshakes. Why so resistant to helping others all of a sudden ? Everyone could benefit from you guys sharing "the light". Why not just spell it out so everyone gets it, even probably a lot of your own members.

Jul 25, 2012
My own thoughts on women as Freemasons
by: Seeker of the TRUTH

OK, let me start by saying I honestly did not read all the posts here but I want to put my 2 cents in...
I understand that men want fraternity, free of women. I am a woman and there are plenty of times I want to be with only women and no men in my own group of like-mindedness.
What I have seen after a bit of research into freemasonry is a decline in membership. It's become the old man's club. Will it go the way of the dinosaur? Hmmm....maybe we should ask the Catholics who have their own "men's club". Last I checked, they, like the masons, are on the decline and working hard to get fresh blood into their own "lodges".
I WISH I could be a part of this, NOT because you're men and NOT that I really want to sit around in a group of guys. NO! It's because I believe that what freemasonry stands for is like minded to my own philosophies and to be in the company of those who want and do and think like me is a rare thing. It's a lonely planet for some of us and to be able to converse with someone who has the same ideas and ideals is empowering, not only to the individual but to the cumulative group.
Sadly, there is this deadlock with your oaths. You promise to keep your promises. You promise not to be present when a woman takes the oath of masonry. Without fraternity there can be no oath, right? So tradition continues until it begins the demise of your organization.
It seems kind of a scorched earth policy to freemasonry. The mindset that you all would rather see the destruction of your organization rather than allow a woman in.
Frankly, considering the core values of what freemasonry is supposed to be, at least what you claim to recruits, seems a hypocrisy to deny a noble human because they were not born with a "Y" chromosome.
Let me put forth another valid argument. I have, in looking for a masonic group that would except a woman, come across SO MANY wanna-be BOGUS imposter organizations claiming to be masonic but really not that your own brotherhood spend time and energy trying to deter the truesome from getting caught up in this. Had it occurred to your frat that part of the reason these fakers exist at all is by your denial of the female population?
Honestly, search as I may for a legitimate masonic-type org that will accept me (being a woman) I have more than once asked myself in what century I live? Maybe the brotherhood still thinks I should be sitting with Jane Austin playing the harpsichord. SHEESH! I find it mind-blowing that the local Grand Lodge will accept just about any swingin' d*ck regardless of how unworthy they may indeed be and yet not even consider a woman, regardless of how good, worthy and noble of character she may be.
OK, fine, y'all just sit there and drink your Cognac and smoke your pipes in your boys club until there's nothing left of you. Your loss, really.

Jul 25, 2012
:)
by: Mary M

I respect free space however I also see your point of wanting to join the lodge. My argument with "Anonymous" is that she doesn't want to join and yet scorns the Freemasons for not allowing women. It bothers her that her husband is apart if a group that she herself cannot join, nor has any enthusiasm to do so in the event that they ever do decide to open their doors for women membership. She blames the Masons for her failing marriage and then says they're marriage is great. It's either one way or the other. If a marriage is failing, it is not the fault of the 3rd party (with exception to homewreckers that knowingly have affairs with married people). This organization accepted her husband and he accepted them. It would be wonderful if the Masons opened their doors to women, but I'd hate it if they were forced to. I wouldn't want to be apart of any society that was, out of obligation, allowed me to join. You're right about what you said though. "They're loss." I have no aspirations to be a Mason. I was just conducting my own research into the possible connections between old religions (such as the occult). I've found a lot of links between the two, Paganism, the craft, and Masonic traditions, etc. It's absolutely fascinating to me and I'm not done yet. It's not only the Masons that have connections to the old world religions. I could go on and on but I'm not. I am a woman and love where and who I am. I don't need the Masons for validation on that. Computer Guy, a Mason, is a wonderful family man who has a supportive wife. It saddens me that "Anonymous" can't be more like her.


Jul 26, 2012
Seeker of Truth
by: Anonymous

You said it all. Good on you !

Jul 26, 2012
Mary, Mary.....
by: Anonymous

Did it ever occur to you Mary, that I've been researching the same things as you ? I no longer wish to be in the masons because I don't need to be in it. Besides, it's quite obvious they do not want women. I can only assume that the oath remains because they do not believe women are smart enough figure it out. My husband acquiesced to that belief by agreeing to that oath. By that, I assume he is of the same mind in that regard. He says he doesn't believe that but obviously he does if he agreed to the oath.

Anyway, I agree with S of T. The new initiates in freemasonry are fewer than those leaving. If they want their lodges to become a thing of the past, they are doing all the right things to ensure that.

Sep 03, 2012
omg
by: adon

this is the stupidest subject ever. this is just a bunch of feminists wanting to ruin everything we make for ourselves. it is a fraternity. are you going to go to every college campus and petition THEIR fraternities? im not asking to join any sororities.

Sep 21, 2012
Uh huh
by: Anonymous

Yes. The sole aim of feminism is to ruin your big boy tree fort.

Nov 06, 2012
looking for actual answers
by: Searching

I found this page during my efforts to find out if and how I can join freemasonry.My husband is a 32 degree mason and I find freemasonry to be very intriguing.Let me state outright that I am not a "feminist" whatever that means anyway. I support my husbands decision to be a mason and would not tell him to do or not do anything like that.However, I believe some legitimate questions were raised and instead of so-called enlightening responses, i have read only bitterness and agitation.I am a female. I was born that way and I can say it has not made me inferior to my male counterparts in any way.I am intelligent,I am strong,(I worked in my family's construction business for years),I am also a loving and supportive wife and mother.I have never needed "girl time" and although I am supportive of him having it, my husband does not seem interested in"guy time" we have a very good relationship,we prefer to be together when possible.WE fish, hunt, play games, and do many things together.However I am excluded from this organization purely because of my gender.He rarely attends his lodge meetings anymore, I can't speak for him but based on things he has said he finds them to be primarily old men with outdated beliefs.I still haven't seen on here,other than people's opinions,why women can not be included?As for as OES that is women AND men,correct? And the few co-masonry or womens' masonic lodges are not considered valid, or "regular".Throw us a bone.Stop acting like we will bring cooties to the clubhouse!If you do not want women at the men's lodge than create a womens' lodge that is valid. We are merely seeking the same knowledge and enlightenment you men have had the priveledge of attaining.How can it be ethical to deny anyone that?

Nov 10, 2012
Hi
by: Anonymous

Just FYI, the above post was not made by the person known by some as "hemp lady". Searching, I want to tell you about a book I have read called The Zodiac and Mineral Salts (can't remember the exact title right here but it's on amazon). That book will tell you what masonry is all about. Then you will never have to sit through any boring meetings of any kind.You will also never have to speak to anyone whose neurons stopped firing long ago. The conclusion I've reached throughout all this is that if they want their boys only, big boy tree fort, then have it. In fact, they can shove it.

Nov 10, 2012
Free Masons
by: Computer Guy

It's a fraternity not a sorority nor a coed organization. That is what it was founded on. Again (as I beat this horse) males do not ask females to change their sorority stauses to coed. In some peoples minds it may not be ethical. It is no more ethical than a sorority in college and woman's clubs treatment of men everywhere. You don't see males trying to join sororities or woman only organizations, because they want to know what they are all about, claiming unethical or discriminatory treatment. I do not have a good answer for anyone as to why women aren't allowed to join other than that is the way it is and always will be. When I joined I knew it was a male only organization. My decision to join had nothing to do with that fact I might add.

Nov 10, 2012
well alrighty then
by: searching

I am a bit disappointed to see that the only answer to my question is that it just is. Being naturally inquisitive I have a hard time accepting that answer. If someone could give me a legitimate reason other than what I suspect, which is at the time,women were looked upon as second class citizens,weak,and useless aside of child rearing. Many theories both social and scientific have been disproven over the years,so has this.should we still be afraid that we will fall of the edge of the Earth because that was the accepted theory before they explored the seas and proved otherwise?It has been fact for some time now that men and women can not only peacefully co-exist in the workplace, on sports teams, and the military, but can form lasting meaningful friendships just as strong as those they have with the same sex.Try telling my Iraq veteran stepson that the women he served with are not his "brothers"...Anyway...if anyone does have a true honest answer why the Earth would cease to rotate on its axis if the Masons changed their antiquated discriminatory policy I would like to hear it.Until then I will look elsewhere to put my talents to good use.Any organization that views me as a problem or a distraction does not hold much value to me.You men speak of not wanting to join womens this or that...the key there is you speak of things you do NOT want to be a part of. I doubt there are many of you that know what it feels like to be wanting to be a part of something so badly and be told no, you were not created right, you do not count. I as a female have encountered this more than I'd like to admit and I find it to be not only ignorant but also quite stupid as you never know what one may have to contribute that you are denying yourself of finding out.

Nov 12, 2012
Searching
by: Computer Guy

Horse has been beaten.

Nov 17, 2012
computer ...... man ?
by: Hemp WOMAN

Well computer man (?), I truly do not know how your wife stands you. I have thought all along that you must have purchased her from Russia or the Philippines. They would put up with just about anything to get out of those places. I can't imagine any woman from North America putting up with your sh**.
Anyway, I have come to believe that most men involved in freemasonry have no idea what it's about other than a penis-only service club, my husband included. Ignorance is bliss I suppose. I have decided not to share with him anything I have learned about freemasonry over the past couple of years. I have also discovered in my research that there is absolutely no reason that both men and women cannot be involved in, ( I don't even want to call it freemasonry )this study. It's the same old story women have had to deal with forever. The ones with greater physical strength make the rules. That, Searching, is the sad, simple truth here in the year 2012.

Nov 19, 2012
Hemp Woman
by: Computer Guy

As always you digress to name calling and profanity when you don't get the answer you want. If you would like I can give you my wifes email and you can discuss how she puts up with my s***. I am pretty certain you won't find the answer you want to hear from her either.

Nov 21, 2012
Had no idea you were so sensitive
by: hemp Woman

Oh my. So sorry ! How's this? I truly do not know how your wife puts up with your feces. In this instance, I am using "feces" as a metaphor for your antiquated attitudes towards the roles of women in society. I did not call anyone any names. I simply questioned whether or not you purchased your wife, as in a mail order bride, from another country in which women have few or no rights, voice or independence. If that is the case, which I suspect it is judging from your reaction, then she would have no idea that she has rights or that your attitude towards women comes from the stone age.

Now for the good news. My husband said he did not want to go to the lodge meeting because it was like watching paint dry. The shine is off the apple ! I knew it was only a matter of time :)

Nov 24, 2012
Women are great.
by: Anonymous

I love and respect women in general and especially all the wonderful women in my life, and I hope they aren't offended that I also like to, from time to time, hang out with a bunch of guys I know and trust, where I can just feel free to just be a guy. It's not that women are somehow unworthy of membership or that they are not our equals or any other bigoted reason like that, but simply that sometimes it is comforting to some of us to hang out with other men.

I also belong to groups and clubs that have both women and men in them, and I really enjoy those groups as well. If women were to join our lodge, it would change the dynamic of the lodge because men behave differently around women. This is not a good or bad thing, it just is. Maybe it is because we are animals first, with all the instincts that go along with that, despite our abilities of rational thought.

So I think men should be able to just get together with other men from time to time to enjoy each others company, just as women should be able to get together with other women in the same way, and we should try to accommodate each other without feeling excluded of left out.

Regards,

Mike

Nov 26, 2012
Hemp Woman
by: Computer Guy

You are correct. Picked her right off an internet site (Insert extreme sarcasm). Imported her here and paid for 5 years of college at Central Michigan University for her to the tune of 150k. I provide very well for my family and my wife, who mind you chooses to be a stay at home mom and not join the workforce with the 150k education I paid for. Yup, you got me, I really dislike women. But it doesn't matter because 12/21/12 is coming.

Nov 26, 2012
Yup.
by: H.W.

Well, at any rate, expensive education or not, she deserves a medal.... or sainthood.

Nov 26, 2012
Hemp Woman
by: Computer Guy

As does your husband.

Nov 26, 2012
gender discrimination
by: Hemp Woman

To Mike Sorry If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck Masons do not allow women to join because they are women No matter how you guys rationalize it, you are participating in gender discrimination Computer Guy will start fuming right about now about women-only groups Here's the thing I don't participate in those because they are gender biased I expected the same consideration from my husband. I am happy he's bored with it It's progress

Nov 28, 2012
Hemp Woman
by: Computer Guy

This horse has been beaten. You will never agree with the basic fundamentals of Free Masonry. You will continue to argue our bias no matter what the explaination is and how straight forward it is. There is no reason to continue to beat this poor horse as you will not get the answer you are looking for. You should have figured that out 100 posts ago. Free Masonry blue loadges are for men only. We do not and will not allow women to join our lodges, period. There is no way to sugar coat it, which I believe is the kind of answer you you are looking for. You are not allowed based on your sex. That is the ultimate answer to this question. Call it bigotry or whatever colorful term you may, that is the way it is and always has been. It may or may not prove to be the downfall of the organization. However, I would rather go down in flames with the organization standing by the code of our founding fathers than to be told I have to change because a person, man or woman, tells us we are discriminatory. It's called freedom of choice and it is our choice to allow or disallow women into blue lodges, not yours.

Everything about us can be found on the internet. Research it and start your own form of Free masonry which allows both men and women to be members. Maybe some day your organization with surpass the free masons in numbers, strength, and political clout.

Nov 29, 2012
bigotry
by: HW

It's bigotry Why don't you just own it ?

Nov 29, 2012
Hemp Woman
by: Computer Guy

It's Jealousy why don't you just own it.

Nov 30, 2012
Ooooh !
by: HW

Answering a question with another question You are a clever one CG....and so original Jealousy ? Hmm No. It's more like incredulity that there are still people around who have attitudes such as yours Well, I'll just leave you to wield all that power and political clout You are just such a great ambassador for freemasonry. I am happy to focus on the positive step that my husband is becoming bored with the lodge. I had considered using his apron as a feminine hygiene product but that won't be necessary now:)

Nov 30, 2012
Computer Guy
by: Computer Guy

Jealousy and control.

Dec 01, 2012
Do you really want to go there ?
by: HW

Control ? Are you the pot or the kettle ?

Dec 01, 2012
Hemp Woman
by: Computer Guy

Jealousy and Control.

Dec 03, 2012
CG
by: HW

Misogyny and Bigotry.

Dec 04, 2012
Hemp Woman
by: Computer Guy

Jealousy and Control

Dec 04, 2012
CG
by: HW

Sonny and Cher.

Dec 04, 2012
Hemp Woman
by: Computer Guy

Jealousy and Control

Dec 05, 2012
CG
by: HW

Pride and Prejudice.

Dec 05, 2012
Hemp Woman
by: Computer Guy

Finally you get it.

Dec 05, 2012
HW
by: cg

Mocking and you.

Dec 05, 2012
Troll
by: Mary M

I'm baaaaack! It's time to ignore anonymous because she is just trolling.

Dec 06, 2012
MM
by: HW

Eye of newt and Toe of Frog

May 06, 2013
The Real Reason:
by: Donny Darkoh

So the 'real' reason freemasons don't admit women and have a hard time recognizing Prince Hall lodges in the south is that the top members believe that everything in nature is unequal and forms a hierarchy. Order is what's important -- not fairness, and not equality, and order requires hiearchy. That being said, freemasons also study nature, and nature is always changing. Times always change. While we were in a patriarchal age in the past, this balance of power is shifting. As women are now equally enslaved with 9-5 jobs, they will also figure out how to free themselves. Women will only be equal if they DEMAND it!! Yet they're not - they join Eastern Star which requires a male to babysit them at all times and continue to read women's magazines, never talking or thinking about anything important LOL. All they have to do is become co-masons, which recognizes them as equal to their male brethren, and refuse to be Eastern Star members in critical mass. After all, the Eastern Star membership requirements are simply degrading and insulting!! I don't know why any woman would become an eastern star!!

May 06, 2013
Hemp Woman
by: Mary M

Smoke some of your "hemp" PLEASE! Your husband will leave you one day because you are a manipulative and controlling. Does he know how you speak of him on the Internet. Should I ever find out your true identity, I will mail him all of this so that he can see the truth into what he's married to.

May 11, 2013
Mary
by: Anonymous

Hey Jackass. I did not post the entry above. I just happened to be looking on here. I'm too busy being enslaved by my 9 to ? job. Maybe you should get one instead of threatening me just because you don't agree with me. Now excuse me, I have to roll one.

Hemp Woman


May 11, 2013
Job!
by: Hemp woman

I have a full time job, JACKASS! I'm also not intimidated by my husband having an outside life. He's in a basketball league that doesn't have women playing but you don't see me torching his character on the Internet for everyone to read. He's happy doing what he does, with what little spare time he has, after working his @$$ off at the hospital and spending quality time with us. You're greedy! I feel sorry for your husband. I REALLY do! I wish him a happy life.

May 12, 2013
learn to read
by: Hemp Woman

Again, I said I did not post the comments that appear to have caused you to get your undies in a knot. Please direct your accusations, etc. towards "Donny Darkoh".

Jun 23, 2013
To Computer Guy
by: Anonymous

To Computer guy:

You mentioned about giving money to the poor and people in need. I'm a upcoming college student, who is still unemployed and broke, and in need of some charity, rather if its foodstamps, money, etc. I can be reached at amelia.landreth@snhu.edu

Jun 27, 2013
to hemp lady and the rest
by: Free tninker

I am a woman who believes in both mens and women's fraternal organizations. My father was a 32nd degree scottish rite mason. He was also involved in the Loyal Order of Moose. My father was a good man and a great dad! My mother was in Order of Eastern Star and Women of the Moose. She was a good person and a great mom. I was proud of my dad and the masons. As a young girl I became a member of Job's Daughters a girls organization who required a masonic affiliation. Jobs taught me to be a confident young woman. I worked my way up the line to the lead office as Honored Queen. I learned how to think for myself, run a meeting under roberts rules of order as well as learning the importance of caring and tolerating all. When I had my own daughters (while I was in the US Air Force) they joined as well and I became an adult leader and role model. Now my daughters have their own kids 2 daughters in Jobs daughters and my grandson joined Demolay. We are all proud of our Masonic Heritage and would not change it for the world. My father and all the masons I and my family have known are wonderful men that live to the highest standards which is the ideal of freemasons. They have passed these ideals to myself and my children and are now passing itnto my grandchildren. U say ur hubby will soon tire of going to lodge! Didn't u ever wonder why the majority of men in his lodge are up in age? That is because they have been masons for much of their adult lives so don't hold your breath. I have read all of your comments. You should be glad ur husband will pass their standards to ur son. Not everything needs to become unisex. How do u know ur husbands lodge has men of such low caliber? If you have proof then u should ask him to find another lodge as someone else suggested. Oh I forgot I am also a member of Eastern Star which I feel u didn't give a chance. The 5 starpoints are all valuable teachings from the bible that should be learned from. I feel u have no idea what the masons and it's sister and brother organizations actually stand for so u have no room to belittle them or defame them as u have. I agree u are using it as an excuse for finding fault in ur marriage since u also mentioned staying together till son wss raised that was a blooper on ur part now drop out of this thread and talj to ur spouse instead.

Jun 30, 2013
If it makes you happy......
by: Hemp Woman

Hi. You were in the air force! That's awesome ! You must be thankful to the women who paved the way for you to have a career in the military.

Defamation - I am not a lawyer but I was under the impression that you cannot defame someone or a group if what you say is true. It is a fact that the masons do not accept women as members. To me, that is a very simple matter of gender discrimination.

OES - I knew it was a bad idea as I was being led around in circles. I should have put a stop to it right there. I just can't sit through those meetings. I am always thinking about what I would rather be doing. Oh, and the fact that I am supporting misogyny by supporting a group that engages in gender discrimination.

We have daughters, not sons. I do not want them to think that it's okay to exclude people from joining a group based on gender. Obviously my husband does not share that value.

Anyway, all the best to you.

Aug 23, 2013
Hemp Woman, can I vote for you?
by: Lady Gloves

Hemp Woman, first I must say that you're brilliant and very funny! :-D

You and I have the exact same problem with the freemasons. My partner is part of a very stiff upper lipped lodge and I simply refuse to have any contact with that organisation, due to the gender discrimination. We also get along perfectly well, except for him being a freemason.

What happened when he joined, was that the lodge gave him an extra pair of white gloves, to give to the woman he held in highest esteem. So he gave them to me, which was of course a nice gesture, from his side. I said thank you, but what does this mean in relation to the lodge? What is it they are trying to achieve by giving out their symbols to people they refuse to take on as members?

I started investigating freemasonry closer and got very intrigued. I could very well wanted to join a lodge, but the answer was simply no, due to my gender. That was a shock, to say the least, and I tried to understand why they stick to this tradition. But no, there was no answer, simply "nah, we won't change". Then and there I lost all respect for the freemasons. They say they work with personal development, but to refuse to do that in the world of today is just pointless.

So, I wrote a letter explaining that however the gloves probably are a nice gesture in a historical context, I have never felt as diminished as to receive them not in my own name. Then the gloves were returned to the lodge. As the lodge archives all their correspondence, that letter is kept forever in the masonic temple.

Now, he keeps going to the lodge as he has made a lot of friends there (and for that I'm happy for him), but I refuse to participate in any activities related to the lodge. I know a number of freemasons, and personally state that they would welcome me into their community, if the rules were changed. I wish the best for you and keep up questioning this gender discrimination - only the freemasons can change their organisation.

Aug 30, 2013
Lady Gloves
by: Hemp Woman

Thank you L.G. ! I'm jealous though. I was not offered anything except the opportunity to peel potatoes for a masonic function when my husband joined. I too politely declined. Thanks for your support. I hope they read your letter to all assembled at the lodge meeting. Oh to be a fly on the wall....

Jun 04, 2014
re: computer guy
by: Anonymous

You're talking about fraternities and sororities in college, but do people just join them at any stage in life? No. Masons are called a fraternity just to have that argument, but many join long after college. I don't want to be in an almost Mason group. That sounds stupid to me (a 29 yo female 4.0 student). I would be one hell of a Mason because I work super hard and understand things very well. You want time away from your wife and that's understandable, but that fact and the beliefs of sexist men should not be a deciding factor. I wouldn't mind having to show my breasts for a moment to be initiated even though I'm aware most of the men would enjoy seeing them. This is a group I've wanted to join for 9 years now and counting but I will not settle for a pansy half version of it, and I will not grow a dick. So I guess I can never join the only group I've ever wanted to be a part of because men don't have as much control over themselves as I do.

Jun 04, 2014
not really fair and computer guy
by: Angela

It is a scientific fact that women have less muscle mass then men, cannot produce as much muscle mass (due to less testosterone), and they have very much less muscle mass in the upper body than men, but can compete on a similar level for lower body exercises. So having a great deal of knowledge about the human body I have to say that physical standards for men and women cannot be equal if they are the same because a woman will always have to work harder for the same exercise, exerting far more energy than men and still unable to experience the same gains as a man. This does not mean woman are not equal, it is just the science of how we are all made and in no way means a woman can't compete against a man and win. Women just tend to be more intellectual than strong. But on that note I totally agree that these "traditions" are based on the fact the woman were not considered equal in any way when the rules were set. I also wrote the "re: computer guy" comment but forgot to put a name.

Jul 09, 2014
sexist pigs
by: Anonymous

Masons are sexist testosterone pigs killing all life on earth.

Jul 14, 2014
The Above Posts
by: Hemp Woman

Hi ! I haven't had time to look on this site in months. Just wanted to let Mary or Computer Guy know that I did not post the comments above.

Jul 17, 2014
Ego Tripping at the Lodge
by: Anonymous1

It's essentially occult country-club for men who want to pat themselves on the back for being spiritually elite. It's the ultimate "you can't join my club" because you aren't connected/invited/male. It's also a easy way to "scratch each others backs" with favors. Seriously if you are looking for true spiritual enlightenment you can find it better places than masonry. I really don't think it exists in masonry. If you just want to feel special and entitled, you will probably achieve feeling special and entitled. But I doubt you'd actually get anything more out of it.

Aug 30, 2014
no women allowed
by: masonic brother joe w.

The answer is NO
Women canNOT be a freemason of a blue lodge
Master Mason..Joe W.

Sep 11, 2014
Get over it
by: Thane

First off, the words 'misogyny' and 'bigotry' being badly misused here. They are defined as *disliking* someone or some group or actually harming them in some tangible fashion based on sex, race, religion, nationality, etc. The mere fact that women, men, children, white people, atheists, religious people, etc are excluded from a group does not *automatically* mean that misogyny or bigotry is involved. Most Masons I know sincerely like women, respect them and are happy to be with them. Having a couple of hours a month of boy-time doesn't make them prejudiced. Complain about them being overly exclusionary if you want, but stop claiming misogyny unless you have better evidence than is shown so far.

As to the claims that women should be allowed to join Masonry because otherwise it is discriminatory, let's take that a step further. Let's postulate that *nobody* should be barred from *any* group, period. Everybody should have the absolute, cast-in-concrete right to be anything, do everything, see everything, belong everywhere, because anything else is racist/sexist/biased/whatever. Pure homogeneity - a state of perfect equality in all things for all people.

So...

Grown men and women should both be allowed to join both Girl Guides and Boy Scouts. Wouldn't want to be agist or sexist, would we?

The Congressional Black Caucus will have to accept those melanin-deprived, blond-haired, blue-eyed guys and gals, 'cause otherwise it'd be racist.

Your dining club, good friends meeting every Thursday for years for good conversation over good food and a fine vintage, had better be prepared to pull up a chair for anybody wandering by. Exlusionism is, after all, Bad. And if they want to discuss nothing but NASCAR, they'll have the right.

The local PTA, now restricted to parents and teachers from a school, will be required to let in childless people from across town - and afford them full voting rights.

Women-only gyms are Gone. How discriminatory to bar 50% of the population for a mere genetic condition!

Native rights are history. Everybody can become a legal member of the Whatever Band, gaining tax-free status in the process. Anything else would be racist.

Phi Beta Kappa must now admit high-school dropouts.

The Olympics and all other sporting groups will become unisex to avoid sexism. Equality at its finest - no special deals for *anybody* and no exceptions.


Yeah, OK, that's all pretty silly. Nobody would seriously suggest, much less advocate such nonsensical demands. Such extreme examples do however show the basic flaw in the 'I oughta be able to join anything I want just 'cause I want it' line of thinking. There are uncounted groups with membership limitations and society copes quite well with that.

Groups have a right to their own time, to their own experiences. People have the right to associate with whomever they please. Unless the denial of access can be shown to have had a real and provable negative consequence, then outsiders complaining about it are just whining drama queens.

My wife and I have what I think of as a Venn Diagram marriage; two quite different lives with a large intersection in the middle for love and mutual support. She's not interested in hunting or woodwork or Civil War history and I have little interest in her book club or philosophical inclinations or regular women-only spiritual gatherings. (Actually, just as well on that last as my being a man disqualifies me. That's fine; as far as I am concerned, if what she does makes her happy and doesn't actually harm me, then it's Good because a relationship is improved when the partners are happy.

Neither of us would ever insist on full access to the other's life and I simply can't imagine my moaning about not be allowed into her women-only groups or dismissing them as 'feminazis' or something equally foolish because they feel a bit of girls-only time benefits them. How insecure would that be?

Kids, find something productive to squabble over. This ain't it.



Sep 14, 2014
Not so silly
by: Hemp Woman

I like the ideas in the middle paragraphs. Let's go with it !

Sep 25, 2014
Women can be Freemasons, but...
by: Co-Mason Chick

Women can be freemasons, but the problem is, a suitable organization for women has not been created. And no one is creating it because women would rather settle for groups like Eastern Star. Eastern Star insults women by requiring that they have a male Masonic association before joining. Eastern Star treats women as children without the capacity to join an organization individually and take oaths on their own by requiring a male sponsor. Co-masonry exists in America, but the reason it feels different is because it was corrupted by theosophists. Annie Besant and friends tried to turn co-masonic lodges into groups that spread theosophy while performing pretend-masonry. Co-masonic lodges in the United States were never intended to provide women with legit freemasonry. Women should refuse to join Eastern Star if their capacity to take an oath individually and meet without men isn’t recognized. Women should also recognize the difference between theosophy and masonry if they ever want to improve the state of co-masonry. I think at some point, children outgrow their parents and break off becoming parents themselves. Women simply have to realize they’ve outgrown OES and new-age theosophical pretend-masonry and make real moves at either modifying existing organizations or creating new ones. Just get in there and start!!! Don't wait for anyone else's permission.

Nov 17, 2014
Balance NEW
by: Pagan

For true enlightenment and learning there has to be balance. Between all opposing factors..light and shadow, male and female, yin and yang...to exclude 50% of either gender does not make sense wether male or female. Masonry is only a glorified man cave..let them have it as it makes them feel special and important...for true spiritual enlightenment there has to be balance. Experience, participation, learning tolerance done on equal footing learning fom each other as human beings..no on human being or one gender has the monopoly on spirituality, enlightment etc we as a species have to learn through each other.

yes there are clubs people can belong to as people need the sense of belonging to something i guess that is only natural but this isnt the way. These are temporary, transitory, discriminatory, dismissive and non progressive. Yes leave traditions alone. If you seek knowledge and enlightenment then you seek it alone or with like-minded people whom gender, colour etc are not issues as this is mere trivia in the grand scheme of things. There are other paths to take..masonry is not the be all and end all. Spend the time either alone or with those where these things dont matter and take those journeys together as human beings not male female black white etc..this should not be important in true enlightenment seeking.
We do not need clubs or places of worship. Just ourselves. Its all about balance. 50/50 anything other than that is non balanced. It makes sense for inclusivity. Maybe if people wanted this enough it will happen and make these clubs redundant. Maybe in time it will. Who knows? One doesnt have to be a mason to be valid and knowledgable.

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