The answer to this question is basically, it depends. First, it depends on who you ask; again, it depends on your definition of being a Freemason; and again it depends on where you reside.
Women in Masonry is an ongoing issue that quickly becomes complicated as well as controversial. Traditionally, women were not permitted to join the Masonic fraternity, period. In most recognized Grand Lodges today this tradition still exists. This has nothing to do with an opinion or attitude toward women. It is simply a tradition that may, or may not, someday be changed. However, there are several organizations within the Masonic family for women.
In the U.S. we have the Order of the Eastern Star. The membership of this organization is made up of Master Masons and women with certain affiliations to a Mason. For more information visit the General Grand Chapter Web site.
The Order of the Amaranth is a Masonic organization open to Master Masons in good standing within the Masonic Fraternity, and immediate female relatives of Master Masons who are at least eighteen years of age. For more information visit the Web site of the Supreme Council Order of the Amaranth.
While not officially recognized by all regular Grand Lodge jurisdictions there do exist some organizations for women which follow the teachings and tenets of Freemasonry. The Women's Grand Lodge of Belgium is an independent Grand Lodge that has chartered subordinate women's lodges in other parts of the world, including in the U.S.
Women's Freemasonry - USA consists of three Women's Lodges chartered by the Women's Grand Lodge of Belgium since 1992. Their hope is to one day form the Women's Grand Lodge of the United States.
American Co-Masonry is an independent body that welcomes both men and women on an equal footing.
The Honourable Fraternity of Ancient Freemasons is a women's Masonic fraternity that was founded and organized in the UK in 1913 by women and for women. They currently have lodges in the UK, Gibraltar, and Spain.
Thanks for the question and I hope this information will be helpful.
Fraternally yours,
Tim
Feb 06, 2011 Rating
Power of Women by: Bree
Was Isis, a Goddess and Wife of Osiris not allowed to be privy to the ancient Wisdoms and Sacred Rituals? There were ALLOT of Divine Women, who, I believe, were the driving persons behind the male learning. Did any of them sponsor the idea of wars and murders? No.men did and do. And then there's Cleopatra, who ruled Egypt. And Mary Magdeline, the FAVORED Apostle of Jesus, the Christ energy embodied! Although I possess the compassion of people's Paths to Enlightenment...
Feb 13, 2011 Rating
My Personal reason by: Ed Mahoney
As I understand one of the many definitions of Freemasonry is supposed to be a Fraternity. Not a religion or a union or other such things.
All of my adult working life I worked in a woman dominated profession--Nursing.
When I was a wee lad of 13 or 14, in Jr. High, I won the tumbling team competition to become the team clown for the ensuing school year. Coincidentally, The Shrine Circus played in my hometown that summer. He was traveling with that particular Circus only because he want to assist the several Shrines that were trying to raise money for their Mosques.
Short of a long story, through his influence, I was allow to perform(unpaid) with the show for 2 weeks. During those two weeks I was privileged to perform for the patients of a Shrine Hospital. At the end of those two weeks I swore a private oath that I would one day become a Shriner. About 40 years later I became one. That experience of seeing the care received by those kids was instrumental in the decision I made many years later to become a Registered Nurse.
Any way when I was entered, I was very pleasantly surprised that there were no women present nor would there ever be in tiled Lodge. I had equals of my own sex to interact with, for good or ill.
About a year after my raising, I ask my Candidate's Coach about the lack of women in the Lodge. He instructed me again that Freemasonry, especially the Blue Lodge, was a Fraternity--defined as the relation of a brother or between brothers. He further pointed out some of the salient features of entering, passing and raising, namely our manner of dress, or maybe lack there of. I remember him saying:Ed, would you want to be present at the initiation of your wife, sister, mother etc.? That question stimulated a very graphic picture of my wife being initiated in front of a bunch of brothers. That was enough reason for me to exclude women from the Blue Lodge.
Women in my opinion benefit greatly from their Brothers, Fathers, Grandfathers, Uncles, etc being in the Blue Lodge. They are free of the company of those male for a few hours of the month so they may do whatever it is that women do when men are not around. In some cases, particularly in Lodges that have programs that encourage wives and families to attend Stated dinners they become active participants in the activities of the Lodge. I know that is not the same as going to the Lodge Room for the Meeting. By and large Stated Meetings are dull and last too long. If they but knew that our biggest secret is how boring Freemasonry can be.
So Ladies count yourselves lucky that you can join a sorority.
Mar 01, 2011 Rating
Breasts Are For Feeding Babies by: Anonymous
This is a partial response to the brethren who would not want to see their female relatives during the initiation or have their "brothers" be present to witness the event. If I wanted to join the Masons, I would not care about exposing my breast to get poked with a sword. Guys just do not get it ! Breasts are for feeding babies. That's it ! So get over it ! I have a feeling if a woman joined the masons, all the old farts would get an erection over a flash of breast and drop dead of heart attacks on the spot ! The membership would be decimated ! On a somewhat related topic, if the motto is "If you want to be one, ask one", is it still legal under Human rights to deny membership to women ?
Aug 08, 2011 Rating
Ridiculous by: Computer Guy
As with any fraternal organization, at some point, it will become a challenge for a woman or group thereof to question the legalities or discriminatory nature of the organization. As the definition of fraternal suggests, it is for men only. Much like the boy scouts should be for boys and girl scouts should be for girls. One could go on with organizations forbidding the opposite sex from joining. However, if it comes down to a legal fight, a woman is praised for her actions to open up the organization and break down the discriminatory walls and nature of the Bi-Laws of the organization. If a man was to do the same thing to a woman's organization he would be shunned by his fellow man for doing so. As it has been explained, there are sub organizations of Free Masonry, which are open to women. Can't this be left alone and let something so old keep it's heritage and standards? I am a master mason and would resign in a heartbeat if a woman showed up at my lodge with legal documents stating she had the right to join. There really are no secrets per-say that can't be found out on the internet. We don't control the world, know where the national treasure is, or kill people (At least not anymore). I want to join the YWCA. I don't want to be discriminated against so I want to use the same changing rooms and showers that the women use at the same time they are using them. Of course I am kidding on the latter, but in all seriousness, let it be.
Aug 25, 2011 Rating
computer guy by: S & I
It sounds like you do not like women Computer Guy. Do you work with any women ? Do you have women friends ? I am a woman. I don't consider it a challenge to wreck your club. I just want to explore the same questions as my husband does when he goes to lodge. It seems to be a big, hairy deal though. I do believe it is wrong to base membership to any organization on gender (race, religion, sexual orientation, physical or intellectual challenges etc.).
I wouldn't care if we had unisex washrooms or changerooms. At this point in my life I couldn't care less if guys were in the changeroom:). It would bother me however if men were in the same washroom/changeroom as my daughters.
Good to know that masons don't kill people, at least not any more:)
Aug 25, 2011 Rating
Calm down Ed ! by: S & I
Why exactly wouldn't you want women in the lodge ? What do you think women would do to it ? I just don't understand the allure of being in a room full of men. I guess I don't think about whether or not I hang out with solely men or solely women or both. I can't think of a woman's group that bars people from joining because they don't have a vagina. If you know of one, please tell me.
I joined the Order of the Eastern Star because I don't have the appropriate genitalia to join the masons. I am not sure what if anything I can tell you but you might know anyway. When people are initiated, they are told stories about women from the Bible. Supposedly, these stories are beautiful. The first story was horrifying. I wasn't even listening when I was told the rest of the stories because I was trying to figure out where the beauty was in that first story. I am still wondering. Now I don't want to go back because I don't want to be around people who think that story is beautiful. When I think about attending another meeting, I feel sick. Since I wasn't listening to the rest of it, I can't remember all the secret passwords anyway.
I've read my husband's books. He didn't let me, I just went ahead. I understand those stories and their relationship to the stages of life. They are far more meaningful to me. I think I would be far more comfortable in the masons. Honestly, I do not want to be a mason just to ruin your club.
Aug 26, 2011 Rating
Ed by: S & I
No Ed. I'm not trying to agitate you. I'm just wondering why the idea of women in the lodge bothers you or any other mason for that matter. I am sincere. I am not a fraud. I guess I'm just trying to make you think about the idea.
Was it my feelings about OES that make you think I'm trying to agitate? Are you in the OES ? I was supposed to go to chapter the other night and truly, I thought I was going to be physically ill. I didn't go.
I did understand what was in the booklets because I had done a lot of other reading prior to that. The short forms were hard to work out at first, but I generally knew what they meant.
If my post agitated you, it wasn't meant to do so. I am wondering if the reason men do not want women in the masons is that men do not feel that they can be their true selves around women. If so, that's sad (not meant sarcastically).
Aug 26, 2011 Rating
reviewed your initial post by: S & I
Okay Ed. I reviewed your initial post. I think when your bro asked you if you would want your wife to be initiated in front of all the other guys, that's where the lack of understanding comes in.
When my husband was an enterd apprentice, he didn't have to go shirtless. He had to wear this suit (top and bottoms) with flaps for the breasts to be exposed at the appropriate time. When he did his fellowcraft, he just wore his regular clothes. I have seen a video online made by a fundamentalist Christian group. It shows the candidate shirtless with a blue cape (really gross and hairy too)for either fellowcraft or mm. I don't know for sure, but I think my husband was told at the time he did the fc that they just wear their street clothes for the mm thing as well. Apparently, these rituals differ slightly from one lodge to another. That's likely why I am wondering why it's such a big deal for women to be initiated into the lodge. In your lodge, the blue cape initiation-gear may be what candidates have to wear.
I wonder how you would feel if you were not allowed to join a group that interested you just because of your gender. I can assure you, it's not a great feeling. I wish my husband would understand that it is morally wrong to me to ban people from anything because of gender. However, I refuse to tell him what to do because I don't want him running my life either. He thinks this problem is solved because I am in the OES. He doesn't realize that I don't ever want to go to chapter again because of that first story. Maybe I can just direct him to read that story in the Bible and then he will see why I do not want to attend chapter.
Aug 26, 2011 Rating
S&I by: Anonymous
I do not have women friends except for my wife. I do work with a woman. That woman is my wife and she runs my entire operation consisting of 3 stores located in Wisconsin and Michigan. She is highly intelligent and also understands what we, the masons, are about and does not wish to attempt to join our FRATERNITY.
Aug 26, 2011 Rating
S&I by: Computer Guy
Sorry the last 2 anonymous comments were from me.
Aug 26, 2011 Rating
rogue lodge ? by: S & I
Well, that's great that your wife is your friend. My husband is my best friend too. That's why I feel sad that he wants to be in a group that discriminates based on gender. Again, I am not going to tell him what to do, even though I get very angry over it as well.
Aug 26, 2011 Rating
additional by: S & I
I just wanted to add, I already know about the first three degrees anyway. I have read extensively all the books I could find in the library about freemasonry. I have also looked a lot of stuff up on the internet and weeded out the conspiracy theories. It's not as though you would be telling anything I didn't already know. Yeah, I know, you took an oath.
Aug 26, 2011 Rating
S&I by: Computer Guy
Let's look at this from another perspective. In college we had fraternities and sororities. What would you think of a guy trying to bust into a sorority because of what you consider discrimination? As I said before, he would be laughed off the face of this planet. However, in your eyes, it would be perfectly acceptable for a woman to join a fraternal organization because it's discriminatory in nature. Just doesn't makes no sense. There are lodges in the US that are not recognized by Grand Lodge with the same rituals and initiations as ours which were founded by and for women. You should look into those.
Aug 26, 2011 Rating
Why would anyone want to be in a sorority? by: S & I
I've never belonged to a sorority. Why do they have these groups ? I've never belonged to any organization that did not accept both men and women. I guess I just don't understand why this is a big deal.
You're right. There are no co-masonry groups anywhere near where I live. I'm having huge anxiety about returning to the OES. After we were through our three months of constant fighting about the masons, my husband told me he didn't see any reason why women couldn't be in the masons. Just because he is of that opinion doesn't mean anything will change. I don't want to go to any masonic functions with him because it just makes me feel worse that I can't be a member. It makes me feel like a second class citizen just because I'm female.
Aug 27, 2011 Rating
S&I by: Computer Guy
Actually I am the face of my flourishing company. My wife runs the day to day operations. The only reason you think I am a bad man is because I don't agree with you. Well, I can tell you a thing or 2 about the real world. First and foremost free masonry does not define me, nor am I the definition of it. I haven't worked for anyone but myself since I was 21 years of age. I am now 40 and living the REAL American dream if you will. I have always taken work home with me. I have never put anything before my businesses, family or employees. My average week consists of roughly 80 hours or more for which I get compensated for half of those hours in order to keep all of my employees full time in a really crappy economy. I volunteer my time, though I have very little extra to give. Rather than buy toys I put all of my extra money into college funds for my 2 young sons so they can have a better life than I had and maybe not have to work nearly as hard as their mother and I have had to. I have worked very hard to not be in the financial position most Americans find themselves in so I can provide a better fiscal and trickled down emotional LIFE for my children and wife. I give money to the poor and borrow it to anyone who is in need, interest free, without question of when I will get it back. I respect my wife, her opinions, and her feeling. Though I don't necessarily agree with her all of the time. I could go on and on about my life and who I am but to sum it up, this is what makes me a mason, SACRIFICE. Something you understandably know little about. However, I am not the exception. The organization is made up of many like me and that is what defines our organization as the BROTHERHOOD of free masonry.
Aug 27, 2011 Rating
Really ? by: S & I
I will study freemasonry independently, until the day comes. I wish you both peace. I hope you can release your fear and make room for change.
Aug 28, 2011 Rating
Wow by: A shocked wife of a freemason
Wow...that's all I can say. There must be a HUGE difference in lodges and the caliber of men that they allow into their fraternity. My husband is a master mason in one of the largest lodges in our state. It's the real deal...no rogue lodge etc. When he did his degree work the first thing his worshipful master told him was that he shouldn't keep any secrets from me except for the identifcation/grips etc. Other than that they told him, (as well as the other candidates) that they should be open and share everything with their wives regarding the rituals and ceremonies and symbols and meanings of everything they learned. They told him that keeping these kinds of things secret would only cause problems in a marriage and that this was NOT the aim of freemasonry...far from it, actually. While I kind of wish I could actually see the rituals etc, or participate (because I think I'd like it) I understand why men like to have bonding time with other men...I was in a sorority in college so I 'get' it. Those times were sacred to me, and some of my best most cherished friends are from those years. I wish there were women lodges that had the same rituals etc, and that we could experience it with other women, etc. I do think it's easier to 'let go' when you are with others of the same sex. But wow, I am very glad my husband isn't being instructed and taught by masons such as these who seem to not only not respect women in general, but even their own wives. How sad. I have met a lot of freemasons and I can honestly say that isn't the norm. Most of my husbands brothers treat me with the utmost respect.
Aug 29, 2011 Rating
gentlemen? by: ASW
Dear Computer guy and Ed Mahoney,
Your replies in this forum shows that freemasonry must change, if it will not forever be associated with discrimination, intolerance and bigotry.
It seems to me that in your cases, you have not yet gained a high level of personal maturity as you cannot view women as equals. I am truly sorry
for you and for the freemasons who wish to include women. I know a large number including my husband and they would feel ashamed for the opinions aired in this thread.
Dear S&I,
Yes, we wives will continue to study freeemasonry independently and continue to question the gender discrimination which soils the purpose of it. Wish you the best.
/Another sad wife
Aug 29, 2011 Rating
My apologies by: Tim
To begin with, I'd like to apologize to anyone who has been offended by comments made in this thread. I should have been monitoring the thread more closely. I will be from now on. Thus far all of the comments are intact, and yes I am embarrassed by some of them. I'm still debating on whether to delete the more offensive ones and thus leave holes in the discussion.
This is obviously a topic that generates definite opinions and spirited discussion, both of which are certainly welcome here on Masonsmart. However, name calling and rude behavior is not welcome and will not be tolerated. If you can and will engage in open and frank discussion while respecting the position and opinions of others then please stick around. But, if you want to act like petulant children, take it somewhere else.
There are some valid arguments and points of view in the posts included in this page, and it is my sincere hope that I do not have to remove the entire page due to the inability of some to keep their passions in due bounds.
In short, be civil, be courteous, be respectful, or be banned.
Sincerely and Fraternally,
Tim GAOTWS
p.s. After further consideration I have removed comments from this thread that I considered to be un-Masonic in nature. Hopefully, the spirit of the discussion remains intact. Thanks to all for your input, but let's keep it civil. Tim
Aug 30, 2011 Rating
Tim by: Computer Guy
This topic at it's core was going to bring on a heated debate. Though there are those that think women should be allowed into the Brotherhood of free masonry, the vast majority think of it as taboo. This would be the equivalent of trying to convince a democrat to become a republican and vise-versa. In business I was always taught if one knows not the answer to a question or the effect of that discussion before uttering it, then it should not be uttered. Hope this was Civil enough.
Aug 31, 2011 Rating
resistance by: S & I
"The first resistance to social change is to say it's not necessary."
Gloria Steinem
Aug 31, 2011 Rating
S&I by: Computer Guy
I'll make you a deal. You find the largest women only organization in the US, petition them to allow men to join on behalf of MEN everywhere. Get them to accept men as members and equals within their organization and I will do the same with the brotherhood of free masons. Now that it's put this way it does sound kinda odd, doesn't it. A one sided fight only has one outcome. Believe it or not there are organizations that are DISCRIMINATORY toward men but I don't think those doors will be knocked on anytime soon.
Aug 31, 2011 Rating
You may be right... by: Tim
Computer Guy,
That was perfectly civil. Thank you.
Obviously, you're right about this topic generating some heat. My original hope for this thread was that it may be educational for us men to learn the perspectives of the women on the topic, and at the same time perhaps prove therapeutic for the ladies to express their opinions. I still think it can be useful so long as it doesn't denigrate into bickering. That will accomplish nothing and will only serve to scare away anyone considering our organization and it's teachings.
I should note that the comments removed from this thread were made by both men and women. The tone of the discussion was simply getting a little too negative. I appreciate everyone taking it down a notch. Thanks,
Tim
GAOTWS
Aug 31, 2011 Rating
okay by: S & I
Sure computer guy. I would do that. It doesn't bother me in the least.
Aug 31, 2011 Rating
S&I by: Computer Guy
My point being that organization, whatever it might be, would say no we are an organization for women and women only.
Sep 01, 2011 Rating
We'll see by: S & I
I was curious about how women-only groups would respond to the question of allowing men in their club. So, I e-mailed the Junior League and DAR. Those were the only women-only groups I knew. I am eagerly awaiting their responses. If their responses are not in favour of allowing men, I think it's discrimination.
There are more than this but it's a start. And yes it may be considered discriminatory in nature but that is the way their charters were setup and I, as a man think they should be allowed to have their woman time left to women.
Sep 01, 2011 Rating
email by: Ed Mahoney, PM
Tim:Since in your opinion that I am too negative in responding to these females that are so positive that only their point of view is valid. They believe all men in masonry are bigots and we have no validity in preferring to keep masonry a fraternity. I regret you saw it necessary to remove my post about the female role along with the ACLU to get the courts to order admission to female to organizations like the Lions Club and the Jaycees and others. I think you should re-evaluate what is negativity. I think the forced admissions of females to Freemasonry is a totally negative event and I do not agree that my post were harmful to anyone. least of all to the Fraternity that I have been active in and loved for the last 25 or so years. I stand by what I said, when I took my Master Mason's Obligation..."I will not be present at the making a woman..."
I wish to leave this thread. Unfortunately I get 2 emails every time a new post is made and I have been unable to locate a mechanism to stop them. Perhaps you can stop the emails.
Sep 02, 2011 Rating
Sorry Ed,... by: Tim
Sorry you feel that way Ed, but you don't infer that someone is a 'cretin' and expect your post to remain. Nor is this site a pulpit for political opinion. I have very definite political opinions as well, but this is not the place for them. When we, as Masons, post on a site dedicated to Masonry we are not simply representing ourselves but the entire fraternity. We must hold ourselves to the standards of our obligations and the teachings of Freemasonry. We do our fraternity no good and we accomplish nothing by entering into petty arguments.
There is an un-subscribe link at the bottom of every e-mail you receive. Sorry to see you go.
Fraternally,
Tim
Sep 02, 2011 Rating
Unsubscribe? by: Ed Mahoney, PM
My apologies as well. Does that unsuscribe apply to the entire Masons Mart? I intend to leave only this discussion as I have nothing else to say that applies to this explosive topic. I have made my position clear enough, even if not effectively so.
Sep 02, 2011 Rating
I understand... by: Tim
I understand completely Ed. This is not a discussion that will come to a satisfactory conclusion for anyone, but it is one that must be had.
The unsubscribe link will only remove you from this particular thread. Thanks,
Tim
Sep 03, 2011 Rating
DAR & Junior League by: S & I
So far, no reply from either of these groups on whether or not they would allow males to join. It doesn't really matter because if these groups do not allow people of either gender to join, it is at least mean-spirited and outdated and at most discriminatory. I do believe it goes both ways CG.
Sep 05, 2011 Rating
Curious mind of a newcomer by: Anonymous
I am not a freemason nor have I ever been acquainted with one. I found this blog while researching something that has fascinated me for many years (the disjoint between what is said and what is practiced in American culture). I do see the validity for male only and female only organizations -- as one post said, people sometimes feel more comfortable around their own gender. I also understand what it is like to be told that I can not do something because of my gender.
After reading the posts and doing the research, I do not think gender exclusiion in practice is the viable topic of discussion....
For me, I would venture to ask why the Freemason hierarchy wsa set up as male only inthe first place. Why was there not a seperate but equal faction created -- as is the case with the fraternity/sorority relationship? I would venture to say that it had everything to do with the concept of Ethos... at the time of creation, whte, male, non-disabled or ethnic was the elite power -- those provided with the most education.
As I can see from reading your comments, I would venture to say that we all agree that Education "enlightens" us. At the time within which the building blocks for the Freemason Fraternity was founded, women were not entitled to an equal (or even existent) education as men.
I am very interested in what the Freemasons teach, and I think that a great deal of American values stem from this teaching. With that being said, Fraternal Freemasonry is based on tradition -- tradition rooted in gender class division, in ehnocentricism. As the founders of our nation prepared for, social structures (i.e. organizations) need to hold their ideals in tact but must learn to adjust with the times in order to survive.
From what I have read thus far, Freemasonry is founded on the ideals of equality, charity, "doing unto others as you would have done unto you." It is absolutely understandable that Freemasons want to guard their tradition of male-only membership, but if this is the case, there should be an equivalent "sanctioned" branch for women only. The Eastern Order is for both men and women and the few groups that are women only are not accepted in the United States as valid. This is the real question at hand... Why not? I would venture to say that it is because the Fraternal Structure was founded in the tradition of sexism and gender inequality.
Being a Freemason seems to teach many wondeful things. I will never be able to experience these things as I am a woman. I can research and live by the ideals of the organization, but I will never be permitted authorization to experience the rituals. I am an American, and I think this is okay. Nonethless, if there is to be an exclusively male organization whose purpose is to reach enlightenment and equality, there needs to be an equal female branch... Sanctioned and accepted as different but equal in legitimacy.
Sep 10, 2011 Rating
ridiculous by computer guy by: jacinth
Referring to computer guy's comment titled 'ridiculous' I read something like 'we do not kill (at least not anymore) are you implying that the masons used to kill? If yes, how was it done, physically or otherwise? How am I sure that some lodges don't still indulge in this act. Pls I need to be clarified on this matter
Sep 16, 2011 Rating
Jacinth by: S & I
Hi Jacinth. I cannot say for sure what Computer Guy meant by the remark he made about the masons not killing people anymore. I am speculating that he could be referring to the penalties that masons suffer if they tell the secrets. If a mason tells his Entered Apprentice secret ritual stuff, he is to be buried up to his head in sand at low tide and his tongue ripped out. There are more specific gory details but that's the gist of it. If a mason tells some of the other secrets, they let vultures rip out his eyeballs. Those are all the penalties I can remember from my reading. They will tell you that those penalties just refer to a man being dishonourable and aren't really carried out. My husband is convinced that if he told the secrets, a masonic hit squad would be after him. He's serious.
There is also a true story about a man in Canada who said he was going to publish the masonic secrets. This was in the 1800's. He mysteriously disappeared. Coincidence ? I think not. The masons do not seem to like to talk about these things. Make of it what you will. Since I am not allowed to be a mason, I am sure these statements will be refuted by those in the know.
Dec 23, 2011 Rating
Masonic Teachings and Women by: Tracey Linn
Good evening to you all.
This thread piqued my interest as I am a woman who comes from a Masonic tradition family. Being born into a family with the instruction and teachings of morality(not prescribed or proscribed)shaped me a certain way.
Adaptability to change and tolerance of the beliefs of others are highly valued character traits in the Order (and other spiritual disciplines as well)yet require real inner work to actually achieve. The resultant equanimity is a shining beacon for all in the presence of one who is capable of embodying it.
Truth is available to anyone who seeks it. It's bestowed when the devoted asker is ready, regardless of title, hierarchy, or sex. There is a recognition, if you will, amongst ones who have done the work for one another that transcends the handshakes and signs.
I have never read a Masonic text, nor have I been relayed or sought any information regarding Masonic secrets outside of wondering if a woman could indeed participate in the Order as represented in this thread. But I have met both men and women who emanate the equanimity of which I spoke above... both in the Order and outside of it.
Perhaps the evolution of the Fraternity will come at some point where the sex of a member does not matter. Are we at that point? I do not know. But this I do know: one's personal path of development can be devotedly applied in a variety of ways, and there is a definite positive effect on the family when this is taken on in a meaningful way.
I am grateful that the men in my life who chose a Masonic path were able to find the Order. It creates a space for love and harmony: a place in which many wonderful things can flourish, including the dedicated spiritual development of daughters, granddaughters, wives, sisters, and nieces. Their paths, whether through the Order in the future or hidden in the female tradition of receptivity and inner wisdom are definitely positively impacted.
Jan 03, 2012 Rating
Thank you by: Tim
Thank you Tracey Linn. Very well said and much appreciated.
Jan 05, 2012 Rating
My opinion by: Mary Moody
If there are any grammar mistakes, I'm sorry. My phone is my Internet. I believe men should be allowed their space. How would women feel if their private meetings were infringed upon by men whining about being excluded. Before anyone asks, I am a woman and I respect others beliefs and traditions and in return, I expect the same. If someday, the Freemasons open their doors to women, it will (or should be) because they chose to do so and not forced by law. We aren't just talking about the rights of women, but also of the rights of men. If one wants to be apart of the order, no matter the gender, the best way in would to prove yourself invaluable. If the only reason you're denies is because of a gender, well then that's that fraternity or sororities loss and you keep moving forward to better yourself. Period! Respect one another's beliefs and traditions.
Mary Moody
Feb 07, 2012 Rating
men and their space by: Anonymous
Why do men need their space ? Why do women need separate space ? I don't get it. Why can't everybody just hang out together and not worry about it.
Feb 07, 2012 Rating
Personal space by: Anonymous
Because even I need a girls night out away from the house and family. Must we be joined at the hip?I don't want that! I love that my husband can go play basketball and I can go to the beach with my friends. Everyone needs personal space.
Feb 11, 2012 Rating
joined at the hip by: Anonymous
I guess I feel that way because I grew up with brothers. There were only two girls on our street and they only wanted to do boring stuff. I always did things with my brothers and all the boys in our neighbourhood. I just thought nothing of it.
Feb 14, 2012 Rating
sports by: Anonymous
I play on a women's sports team. We are in our 30's and 40's and are all newcomers to this particular sport. Only in recent years have girls been allowed to play this sport on the same teams with boys. My friend's husband asked if he could come and learn to play with us. He was completely new to the sport also. I thought it was a great idea. Unfortunately, none of the women on my team agreed that we should let him play. I was the one who had to tell him and I felt really awful about it because there was no real reason to exclude him, other than he was male. This is how I feel when the masons exclude women. Just another way to look at it.
Mar 02, 2012 Rating
Mary Moodie and Tracy Linn by: Anonymous
I take exception to points that you have made.
Mary Moodie - You speak of "proving yourself invaluable". Why ? I am invaluable. So are you. We are invaluable simply because we exist. The masons devalue certain people. These are seniors, people with intellectual challenges and women. This part of freemasonry is never mentioned when speaking of how accepting the masons are of everyone. I do not participate in any group or activity that men or anyone else could not.
Tracy Linn (I think) - If you are satisfied to simply be a receptacle, that's okay for you. I find that "role" to be unacceptable.
As I read and learn more about freemasonry, I think "Yeah ? So What ? Doesn't everyone know that ?" I think of freemasonry as a remedial class for men who have reached middle age and find that they have never had a thought of anything other than materialism. Sudddenly, they are closer to death and are becoming afraid of the unknown, of something not of the material world over which they have no control.
If they are truly interested in learning, why have the blind leading the blind ? Many women could tune them into spirituality. I fail to see how the man to whom I am married is ever going to learn anything from a bunch of drunks and womanizers who comprise the lodge he attends.
Mar 02, 2012 Rating
Anonymous Mar 02, 2012 by: Computer Guy
I must say your last comment regarding what freemasons are is disturbing. We do not let women join our lodges, that's no secret. We do not however discriminate against intellectually challanged or elderly people. The MASONS are there to help anyone. We have organizations or groups setup to help the elderly as well as the less fortunate. You obvioulsy have no idea what you speak of. Our lodge alone consists of 10 people under the age of 50. The rest of the 20 or so active members are all well into their 70's, 80's, and 90's.
A big part of the masons is spirituality. If you do not believe in a God, you can not join.
As far as Masons being a bunch of drunks and womanizers, I personally have never seen so much as a beer can in our lodge.
I would hope that the moderator removes your last comments about Free Masons. They are nothing more than your ill willed, vindictive, misguided attempt to damage the names of Free Masons everywhere.
Mar 02, 2012 Rating
:) by: Mary Moody
My last name is spelled with a Y and not an IE. MOODY. Learn it!
As far as you go, Computer Guy, you ROCK! I know some men that are Freemasons and they are GOOD men. I only hope my sons grow up to follow in their/your example.
Blessings )O(
Mar 02, 2012 Rating
Anon, Anonymous. by: Tracey Linn
Anonymous,
As you like it.
You have no idea to whom you speak, or have mistaken my words, or do not understand the task of what you offhandedly term a "receptacle". As I was clear in my words I will not take the time to rewrite them in a different way for you to understand them. There's just too much for a "receptacle" to do during the day.
Mar 02, 2012 Rating
Mary Moody & Computer Guy by: Anonymous
There is a fellow who attends my husband's lodge. He cheated on his wife many times and then took up with someone else's wife. Granted the woman was not the wife or daughter of a freemason. I understand that committing adultery with the wife or daughter of a brother is against the rules. Since this man wasn't kicked out, I assume that the wives or daughters of anyone else are fair game. This was not an isolated incident among the lodge members.
If you do not devalue women, the intellectually challenged or "old men in their dotage" then why does it say in the masonic rules that masons will not attend the "making" of these people. Obviously, none of the above are good enough to join your secret, exclusive club.
Every time the man to whom I am married goes to lodge, I fill the pockets of his suit with notes asking him why he discriminates against my gender.
Mar 02, 2012 Rating
HI by: Anonymous
Perhaps you married someone below you. It sounds like a personal problem. This is only others opinions and I watch as others attack those that give their support to gender separation. If your husband truly devalues your feelings, then why do you remain married? It seems to me that you take more time filling out notes to put in his pockets (which I bet he doesn't even read) than you do putting action into your own self and happiness. If that were me, I'd take girls night out when he wasn't at the lodge, leaving him to deal with the children and leave a long to-do lust of household chores to accomplish before your return. It may also drive him crazy, you claiming a life if your own that he takes for granted. Not all men are cheats and liars. Sorry for the woman who was cheated on repeatedly and abandoned for another but at least he's not her headache anymore. He's another woman's headache and she's free to find someone worth her heart. Obviously, the lodge that your husband belongs to is greatly flawed.
Mar 02, 2012 Rating
Thanks by: Anonymous
Many of the men in my husband's lodge are greatly flawed. My husband is a wonderful man. That is why it is hurtful that he seems to want to associate with these men and participate in a gender specific organization. As for the notes, it's just desperation. He asked me if I wanted to see his apron. Of course I refused. Maybe if I knew where it was, I could get rid of it..... ?
Mar 03, 2012 Rating
Devalue? by: Computer Guy
I have read all the rules governing our lodge and taken all the oaths for the same. Not once was I told to devalue people. Nor was I asked to confirm my steadfastness toward that goal. Our oaths are to our families first and then to the masonic code. One makes us a whole person, the other makes us a better person. Ignornace, can be a scary thing and is usually met with half truths and or accusations. I am proud to be a Mason. I will be one for the rest of my life, and I hope my 2 sons follow suit when their time comes.
Now back to the main question of this discussion. Can a woman be a free mason? The answer, plain and simple is NO. That's where this discussion should have ended. A simple question with and even simpler and state forward answer. A personal opinion does not matter nor apply here. End of discussion.
Mar 03, 2012 Rating
To computer Guy by: Anonymous
How would one become a Mason. Not for me obviously. I'm happily situated in my spirituality and coven (I'm a Pagan). I speak of my 2 young sons. If it's something they are interested in when they are older, what do they need to do and if they choose to follow my spiritual path, will that hinder them. You said that as long as members believed in "a God" that one could join. That statement implies to me that it matters not. No one in my family is a Mason and them men I spoke of were in a nursing home for which I once worked at. The tales he told make made me smile but they never revealed Freemason secrets. He had visitors that are apart of the lodge he once belonged (he passed away). He had passes given to him by his doctors to attend meetings in the company of a nurse. George wanted me but it was forbidden and a male nurse took my place, which I respected and had no problem with. So, the age issue is not an issue like anonymous above implied. I respect it because, being apart of a coven, I too have taken an oath. There are secrets that I will never reveal myself. It's embedded in me. For women that want to be a Freemason, during my research on this, I found that there are women's Freemason groups so you should begin there. I only researched it for my sons. Their father has no interest in it so that leaves me.
Computer Guy, at what age is appropriate for a male to begin and, provided my sons want it and having no ties to the Masons themselves, how do they get started. My 8 year old son expressed interest after watching the movie National Treasure. He then began watching the history channel, his interests peaked even more (lol). I will always support my sons in their endeavors. What other requirements must he meet in order to be considered? Any advise you can give me will be appreciated. Any Freemason that can help me with my sons possible future (should the interest hold), I will be grateful for. One more thing, my son is a highly functioning autistic child. He's very smart and extremely trustworthy. He's only in a special class because he's bores to death! He can already do what the teachers are teaching him so he has other teachers to keep him challenged and interested. Would this be a mark against him? I hope not because I'd hate for his dreams to be crushed and it would be the Masons loss because he been described as a prodigy. Talking with him, you wouldn't even know he was autistic.
Mar 04, 2012 Rating
computer guy by:
I think the question should be why aren't women allowed to join ? I have seen the rules about joining freemasonry. They do not allow women, old men in their "dotage", the mentally ill or the intellectually challenged. If you are a mason, you must support this devaluing of these specific groups, even if this was not part of your oaths, because you support these rules. I believe the fellow about whom the nurse above has written was a mason long before he was in his "dotage". As far as the argument that men must have guy time and women must have "girl time", I have just never thought that way. It's just not important to me.
Mar 04, 2012 Rating
Computer Guy by: Anonymous
He is not intellectually challenged or mentally challenged. He has a few quirks but don't we all? His IQ is higher than most adults and will climb as he grows. He's about to turn 8 and knows more about computers than anyone. He remembers everything he reads. A child Einstein. The Masons loss. Not his. As far as George, his father, his grandfather and Greatgrandfather and so on before him were Masons. There's no way they'd disrespect a man with so much knowledge and integrity by leaving him to rot in a home, unforgotten. His sons and grandsons (Masons themselves) saw to that. I suppose it depends on the lodge and the men that belong to it. Just like grocery stores, not everyone carries the same exact products. Some are better than others.
Mar 04, 2012 Rating
(BIG SIGH) Where to begin... by: Tim
It's pretty hard to know whom I am addressing since everyone seems to want to remain anonymous, but here goes.
First off, your son's autism would not preclude him from becoming a Freemason. In fact, he sounds as if he will grow up to become a very interesting man and will be a valuable contributor to whatever he chooses to involve himself in. So long as a man is duly elected by the members of a regular Masonic lodge, can understand the obligations he is taking upon himself, and takes those obligations freely and voluntarily he may become a Freemason.
In most Masonic jurisdictions the legal age of joining is 18 years. However, in the U.S. we have the Order of DeMolay for young men age 12 to 21. I would encourage you to learn more about the Order as the teachings and tenets are in every way Masonic. www.Demolay.org
We do not "devalue" anyone. We promise not to be present at the making of a Freemason of an old man in his dotage. When a man has reached that point, regardless of his age, when his mind is no longer sound he is unable to understand and accept his obligations freely and voluntarily. It would be a diservice to him to accept him into the fraternity knowing him to be such.
As to our aged members, like George, they are to be honored and respected for their accumulated knowledge, wisdom and experience, as well as for their years of service to the fraternity.
A man must be of legal age to become a Freemason. A young man in his non-age is also not prepared to understand and accept the obligations of being a Freemason. It would be irresponsible for us to place that responsibility on a man too young to appreciate or understand what was expected of him.
The requirement to membership regarding our belief in God is that we express an unfeigned belief in God, not a god. There is only one living and true God. Which religion a member chooses and how he relates to God is an individual choice. Freemasonry has nothing to do with that choice. However, our members are encouraged and expected to follow their own chosen religion.
Freemasonry is a system of moral teachings designed to enable a good man to better himself, not materially but spiritually and morally. Its teachings are good, but Freemasonry itself is neither good nor evil; it simply is. It has no inherent power beyond that which we give it. It is what we make it.
Thank you for your kind attention.
Mar 05, 2012 Rating
Tim by: Computer Guy
I was very busy this weekend. As a result I was unable to answer the questions posed to me. Hopefully your responce will bring the much needed answers to some of the questions which have been sought here. Thank You.
Mar 05, 2012 Rating
Still one question by: Anonymous
Women who are of the age of majority, are of sound mind and who are very much able to understand the obligations are not allowed to join. No one has given any reason for this. ( ready for Computer Guy to have a tantrum any time now).
Mar 05, 2012 Rating
Perhaps the question is the answer by: John
"Why do women always want to fix what doesn't need fixin'?"
Leroy Jethro Gibbs
Mar 06, 2012 Rating
Jethro Gibbs ? by: Anonymous
Why can't masons just answer that question ?
Mar 06, 2012 Rating
:) by: Mary Moody
Hey! I'm a woman and I could care less! Inwas only doing research. I have no desire to become a Mason and never will, even if the doors were to open for woman. Besides, I repect traditions, even if other liberals don't. This isn't about equality. Even I need my own special time, whether it's ceremonial or not (like anonymous, I'm Pagan but don't belong to a coven). My group consists of women and men. I'm happy with that. My husband likes to have a beer or two with his brothers occasionally, shoot pool, play basketball, whatever. The point is, while we spend most of our time together, our marriage is strong enough to survive a few hours apart (even days when I'm gone for conferences). Let men have their Masonry. Is it mentally, physically and emotionally hurting women because they're not being let in. No, it's not and if it is, she needs to figure out why it's SO important to want to change the rules. We now live in a society where the few outweigh the majority and it's sad but let me tell you this. Time apart equals better sex, at least for me. Just sayin.' I can argue and argue why Masonic tradition of men should be left alone but it's just not going to agree with those on here that oppose me because it's not what they want to here. If Masonry is really that important to a woman, there are female sects to join. Aren't they GOOD enough? Join theirs. The men have theirs, the women have theirs. No one expects women to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen anymore. We have rights too but at the same time, we can respect certain traditional space. I believe most Mason men are good people. Just let them be who they are. Don't destroy their traditions over pride. That's just one woman's opinion anyway.
Mar 06, 2012 Rating
:) by: Mary Moody
Anonymous, Tim answered the question. It's an age old tradition, that's why. Time to let it go.
*Yawns*
Moving onto another subject without the whiners now.
Mar 06, 2012 Rating
Answer by: Computer Guy
Because its a fraternity not a sorority. As I stated before, find the largest all female organization and petition them to let men join. See how far you get. If women don't have to change their organizations to allow men to join why should it be reversed? Because we are men right? As such, we shouldn't have the same rights or protection as women under our constitution. 99.9% of the people who have died to protect out constitution and freedoms were, dare I say it, MEN. But according to some opinions, we should not be allowed to have an all men fraternity because it's discriminatory and degrading to women. Nobody is ever going to win a battle when the other side can't see past the end of their nose.
Mar 06, 2012 Rating
Mary Moody by: Computer Guy
We do thank you for your understanding and support Mary.
Mar 06, 2012 Rating
:) by: Mary Moody
You bet :D! ^^^^^
To me, it's just not a debate because it's a FRATURNITY! I read all this to my husband and told him that I'm convinced that there are some seriously bitter women out there that want to ruin men. I WANT a man in my bed, not someone forced to do as I say. Not to say I'm submissive. Quite the opposite ;). He and I are equal in our marriage. He asks and I ask before we go about doing things, especially major expenses. It's respect for each other. I respect the men who respect me in return. The woman above that mentions she stuffs her husbands pockets mysifies me. He was more than likely a Mason when they married or was striving to be. If it was such a bother, then why get married? I'm not big on tattoos yet my husband is pretty much covered. I knew this when I married him. Have I tried to change that. NOPE! In fact, he's getting more work done next week. It makes him happy. To take that away would be unfair. It would be like him trying to strip away my spirituality and telling me I have to be Christian or else. Let people be who they are. It's all the same. Freemasons are a fraternity but for those women that desire it, there IS a sorority version that teaches the same values and traditions as the fraturnity. All they have to do is Google it to find local chapters.
Mar 06, 2012 Rating
Oversharing ? by: Anonymous
Thanks for your input Mary. I didn't really need to know about your sex life.
I think people should be able to join any group which interests them, regardless of gender. Why is that so difficult to understand ?
The "tradition" argument is based on beliefs about women, by men, that are outdated to say the least. People used to believe in owning slaves too. Thankfully that lovely tradition was outlawed. So the tradition argument doesn't really address the issue. The question might be stated as why does an organization insist on adhering to beliefs that we now know are wrong ? I think they just lack the guts to say it out loud because they know that they cannot legally bar anyone from joining based upon gender.
I did join the order of the eastern star. It's a boring waste of time. I do have my own things to do away from my husband. There is not one organization with which I am involved that men could not join. That's the morally correct thing to do.
Mar 06, 2012 Rating
:) by: MARY MOODY
I love how you hide behind your anonymity. Look, I can't wait for someone of a male gender to apply to an all girls school or sorority and begin a lawsuit when he's rejected. It'll be all over the news and you, being a hypocrite, will more than likely side for the sorority or girls school sighting, "He only wants to chase tail." It's a double standard. Women fight to join men's groups and usually win, West Point Acadamy comes to mind and the girl manipulated the system because she had a name that fit both male and female. She one her plight and got in, only to drop out a week later because she couldn't handle the rigourous treatment that ALL candidates of that one "only men's school" adhered to. They didn't treat her any less than the men training and SHE complained about it. If you think the Evening Star is boring and a waste of your time, what on earth makes you think you're missing our on at the mens lodges? It sounds like it's all boring to me, but by all means, strip away the freedoms of men, ruining the hopes and dreams of my sons. Turn them all into wimps. And yes, I HAVE A FABULOUS SEX LIFE!!!! I love sharing info ;). This that attack me for it are obviously lacking a real man. Jealous? Stop whining.
Mar 06, 2012 Rating
Alexander Road by: Anonymous
God I love you Mary Moody. Men have their traditions and women have theirs. Men have their fraternities and women have their sororities. Thank God there are still women like you left in the world. I had just about given up hope and vowed to never marry but if she's like you, she'll have my heart. It is a double standard. I will agree women were treated abominably in the past, having no rights but that isn't the case now. Women are strong and I dependent, but most I find want to put a leash on me. My last girlfriend put spyware on my phone because she didn't really believe I was working late. She was wrong. I was working late to earn enough money to buy her a $20,000 diamond engagement ring and needed the extra hours to pay it off but when I found out that she had no trust or faith in me when I never did anything but love her, I broke up with her and used the money to take my dad fishing in Alaska before he died. I also sued her for invasion of privacy and won. She had no right to do that. I figured it all out when she seemed to know every text I was getting. I ha it looked at and sure enough, it was there. Many women are trying to ruin men. Anonymous, don't cut off our balls please. We need them. Mary, keep on rockin' on! You're a fair individual.
Mar 07, 2012 Rating
Not really fair by: Anonymous
If you read the posts, I don't care if a man wants to join a sorority, or DAR or Guides or whatever. If he just wants to get laid by joining a sorority, that would soon become apparent and he would get kicked out for that reason and not just because he's a man. Same for the armed forces. If you can't get through boot camp, then you're out whether male or female. It should be based on ability not gender.
My husband did join the wimps (and cheaters, drunks , substance abusers and woman haters) when he became a mason. If the lodge was supposed to make these guys into better men, they must have been real winners when they started.
Mar 07, 2012 Rating
Sad by: Alexander Roads
You're breaking my heart.
Mar 07, 2012 Rating
Not Really Fair by: Computer Guy
I'll start addressing you by title. Since you won't actually put a name on here which we my address you by.
Your comment "If you can't get through boot camp, then you're out whether male or female. It should be based on ABILITY not gender".
This shows how little you know about fairness. Have you ever heard of gender norming? The military isn't even fair because most women can not keep up with men as a result of physical limitations. Men have to do far more than women do in order to pass their physical requirements to graduate from boot camp. Is that fair? I don't think so but the women that pushed for it do. Women say they have less upper body strength and can't run as fast as men. Thus they have more time to complete their required 2 mile run than men do. They have to do less push ups, sit ups, and pull ups than men do because they are female. It's not equal in my mind and not everything ever will be.
Are you pushing women's organizations to accept men as well, or just puching men's organizations to accept women? Of course you aren't and that's not fair either.
Mar 07, 2012 Rating
I'm not pushing anyone by: Anonymous
I didn't set up the situation in the armed forces that you describe. There should be one standard of achievement. If you cannot reach that, too bad.
I don't belong to any women only groups. I don't think it's right not to include people based on gender.
So back to the question. Why do the masons continue to uphold a "tradition" that is based on past beliefs about women that we now know to be incorrect. Along those same lines, the masons did not include black men in the lodge so they started Prince Hall lodges. Does Prince Hall masonry still exist ? Does freemasonry now allow people of colour when that was not the case in previous years ?
Mar 07, 2012 Rating
Alexander Roads by: Anonymous
Everyone, pack your bags....we're going on a guilt trip (lol).
Mar 07, 2012 Rating
I'm not pushing anyone by: Computer guy
Why do all of the followin women's organizations not allow men to join?
And men of African descent are allowed to be freemasons. One of the requirements of being a freemason is you must be free-born. Free Masons as defined were free men, not slaves. They became free masons so they could profit from their trade. Something a slave could not do, therefore they were not allowed to join as slaves. That's where the word free comes from and is a requirement to become a Free Mason. Prince Halls do still exist. However, you can not be a member of a Prince hall and a lodge of free masons. It's one or the other as I understand it.
Mar 07, 2012 Rating
Ugh! by: Mary Moody
I'm sure the Masons have decided to keep their traditions, not based on past perceptions of women, but because they know we're smarter, lol. Sorry guys. I've defended you all this time. You gotta allow me that. Some initiations, use heard or read (depending on the lodge) are done in the nude. If this is true, I'm confident most men wouldn't want their mothers, sisters, wives, girlfriends, and daughters seen in the buff, seeing a bunch of older guys keeling over from a heart attack. I have no problem with the nude thing. I'd drop my robe. I've already done so in ceremonial rites already, (I'm a tree hugging hippy girl) but anonymous, would you drop your robe? Another issue (This was on the History Channel), the men dint want their sisters, girlfriends, wives and daughters under the pursuit of Mason brothers (even though it is forbidden). It opens up too much temptation that can rip lodges and families apart.
*Is this true, Tim and Computer Guy (I've decided to call you John. That's the name I call all men when I don't know their names). what I've heard about. Nude initiations, and the reasons I've stated? I'm sure there is more there in the rule book of the reasons why women aren't to join and I STILL support that. I just want to know if my research is correct. I wanted to compare initiatory rites between the Knights Of Columbus (Hey Anonymous (Jane, I'm going to call you), That's the Catholic Church's version to the Freemasons and it's all men as well), to other sects, including some Pagan groups. It's a project I hope to publish someday years down the road on Witchvox when I have ALL the facts. This is just research and I'll use no names without permission. Also, are gay men allowed to join? That's another question I have. If not, then I feel that's truly discriminatory.
I don't believe the Masons excluding women have anything to do with past perceptions. Women have proven to most societies (with exception to the Middle East), that we are capable of anything and everything. As a woman, I am strong, healthy, kind, loving, truthful, honest, faithful , cunning, charming, beautiful inside and out. I don't care if men have their Fraturnities, groups and clubs. I will not invade myself on that. Some things are better left alone.
Mar 07, 2012 Rating
Mary Moody by: Anonymous
On a different note: This is for Tim and Computer guy. Regarding my research, is there a safe way I can contact you and inquire about Masonic traditions? I'm not asking for secrets to be divulged. I just want to know what your initiatory rites are like. Is there any study beforehand involved and various other things. How does a man with ambitions to be a Freemason, with no contacts, find a path or open door to become one. What are the rules, besides the women issue, etc? What facts are you allowed to divulge. Since this is a forum on women becoming Masons, is there a safe way to contact you? Perhaps you can set up an alternate email so that I can ask you questions as I need to and you can answer if you're permitted to. Would this be doable?
Mar 07, 2012 Rating
Mary by: Computer Guy
I don't know if this will let me post an email address on here or not but here it goes. Contact me at meto49938@hotmail.com. I'll respond to you and give you my office email address.
Mar 07, 2012 Rating
No one speaks for Freemasonry by: Tim
You're certainly welcome and free to research to your heart's content, but please bear in mind that no one speaks for Freemasonry. The history of the Masonic fraternity is verifiable; it's activities since the foundation of the fraternity may be traced and verified. But, Freemasonry itself can not be defined nor quantified. Anything I or Computer Guy or any other Mason or anyone else says regarding Freemasonry is nothing more than opinion and belief. We will state the truth, but it is the truth as we believe and understand it to be. So, you will never get all the facts because Freemasonry uses symbols to communicate its teachings and symbols are open to interpretation.
I'm just saying there are no official statements here or anywhere else regarding Freemasonry.
Mar 07, 2012 Rating
:) by: Mary Moody
I understand completely about symbols. As a Pagan, we have our own and many, are shared between the two sects. It's alchemy, something I know well. All I'm looking for are opinions. The rest I get from books, online sources, etc. I love looking at monuments and seeing the Freemason signatures in the symbols left behind. It's mystifying and beautiful. If all the answers were there for all to know, it would take away from it's Magick.
Mar 07, 2012 Rating
Tim by: Computer Guy
Dang, that was very well stated. Kinda made me chuckle a bit though to see someone put it into words.
Mar 08, 2012 Rating
Hello ? by: Anonymous
So, Could a MASON please answer my question?
Mar 08, 2012 Rating
lol by: Alexander Roads
Excuse me. What was your question again?
Mar 08, 2012 Rating
Do any of you fellows have the guts to answer truthfully ? by: Anonymous
So back to the question. Why do the masons continue to uphold a "tradition" that is based on past beliefs about women that we now know to be incorrect ?
Mar 08, 2012 Rating
Mars and Venus by: Tim
The tradition of the Masonic lodge being reserved to men only is not based on outdated beliefs regarding women. It is based on sound reasoning. The lodge is intended to be a place of peace and harmony. There are fundamental characteristics of men and women that would jeopardize that peace and harmony should the lodge experience be commingled. I think some of the comments on this very page confirm that.
Men are protective and competitive by nature. If my wife and I were in a lodge meeting together and I felt that she were in any way being threatened or disrespected the peace and harmony would quickly come to an end.
Women are smarter than men (yes, we'll give you that one Mary). And, if a woman chooses to do so she can manipulate a man into doing pretty much whatever she wants. This would also not be conducive to the intended peace and harmony of the lodge.
These are just two examples of our fundamental differences that could have the potential of causing strife in a lodge setting. No doubt, there are others. The whole Mars and Venus thing comes to mind.
Should there be women lodges? Why not? I see no reason that women should not have access to the Masonic experience and its teachings, and I see nothing prohibiting women lodges from being formed.
Should the twain ever meet? I think not.
Mar 09, 2012 Rating
cop out by: Anonymous
Well, you just confirmed it. Masons cannot step out of their outmoded belief system. But, at least you had the, dare I say it, gonads, to say it out loud. You are honest bigots. The thing is, women don't need to be protected or defended. I can handle all of that on my own. Your statement also confirms that the masons still believe that women are underhanded and (they can get a man to do pretty much anything)sneaky. I'm sure there are women who are underhanded but no more so than men. In fact, there are masons I know who I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them. Hopefully my husband gets bored with it soon. The lodge will likely close fairly soon anyway because their death rate is way higher than their birth rate.
Mar 09, 2012 Rating
Wow by: Mary Moody
You're a cheerful one. The only person you can blame for your situation is yourself. If he's lying and cheating on you, then why do you stay in a less than satisfactory marriage? Also, wishing death on people, no matter what they are, just shows how bitter you are. If your statements are correct about them the congratulations. You've reached their new low. Do t blame the Masons for your troubled marriage. My advise, seek medical help for depression and get a marriage counselor, quick!
Mar 09, 2012 Rating
indifference by: Anonymous
My husband is a wonderful man. He does not cheat or lie. I do not want the masons to influence him. It breaks my heart to know that he supports archaic bigots such as the masons. I don't wish death on anyone. It's just a fact that the people in his lodge are old and many have died. There are not many new ones joining thankfully. The lodge will eventually have no one left.
Mar 09, 2012 Rating
OK by: Mary Moody
If your husband is a wonderful man, then why are you afraid of outside influence? He's not a child. He's a grown man. This is just my opinion but if feels more like you don't want to share him unless you're apart of everything he's apart of. It feels as though you're very controlling and on the border of obsession. If he's all wondeful, then you have nothing to fear. He's not a bigot for wanting some "me time" by going to his man cave. If you force or manipulate him into giving up something he loves, he'll only resent you for it. What if he played basketball in a league and all the members were men. You'd probably make him give that up too because they're all bigots, right (if you can't play)? My husband is in a league. Sometimes I go watch his games but most often, I enjoy my space and LOVE that he's having a good time without me. Our marriage is strong because we have our own lives apart from it. After his lodge meetings, he comes home tonyou, right? He loves and cherishes you, right? I'll tell you what.....Rather than pressuring him to give up Masonry, why don't you plead your case for him finding a more respectful lodge with other good men like him. That maybe an argument you can win. Also, make friends with the other wives. Go to Hawaii without them. Leave them at home with all the duties of household chores and kids. My husband and I are equals. He has basketball, nights out with his brothers (If they drink too much I have to go and get their drunk @$$es, yelling at them not to upchuck in my car), he goes and gets his tattoos. When he gets home for work, he takes over with the kids (even though he's exhausted) so I can study to further my spiritual growth. Monday nights, I go to Pagan meet-ups. He can't come because somebody needs to stay behind for the kids but I don't ever hear him complaining that he can't come. While men are not excluded, it's primarily female. His happiness is as important to me as my own and vise versa. That's a truly happy marriage. The Freemasons are not bigots. They are just men. Flawed because they are human but the majority are good people. You're opinion is unfair because it's based on your own emotional experiences and that of the other women of your husbands lodge. That lodge is greatly flawed and therefor, will unlikely last. I hope you'll finally be happy when your husband isn't anymore because he'll have lost something that you'll undoubtedly celebrate an I hope your wonderful husband sees how happy you are.
Mar 09, 2012 Rating
Mary by: Anonymous
My husband does other stuff with guys. I don't care. He's away for a week at a time. No problem. I just don't like the masons. They don't accept women for reasons that are wrong and that imply that adding women necessarily equals conflict. Our marriage was stable and happy until he found the masons. I've given six years. That is when our youngest will go away to school. If he hasn't at least stopped attending or quit by then, we're done. Then he can happily be with the masons.
Mar 09, 2012 Rating
Mary Moody by: Anonymous
There's nothing worse than giving ultimatums. Good luck with that but why wait to toss away a wonderful guy. Do it now and spare him 6 more years of wasted time so he can find a wonderful woman that will, not only have faith and trust in him, but not serve him a lifetime serving of guilt and ultimatums with notes in his pockets. I have single friends looking for a great man. Send him my way when you're finished with him and I'll introduce them. She's in an all femal coven so she won't have any problems accepting him as a Freemason. She's beautiful, young, smart and magickal. We live in the Los Angeles area so give him a heads up about her. Just so you know, a good man, a once in a lifetime love is difficult to come by so I'd think twice before tossing him in the trashcan over the Freemasons.
Mar 09, 2012 Rating
no ultimatum by: Anonymous
It's not an ultimatum. It's just fact. We are responsible for raising our child to adulthood. Like I said, I am hopeful he'll be bored with the masons before too long. They never do anything at his lodge. Right now he's in the honeymoon stage with it. That won't last.
Mar 10, 2012 Rating
Computer Guy and Prince Hall by: Anonymous
Evidently, Prince Hall was a free man living in Boston and not a slave. He was denied entry into masonic lodges in Boston because he was black and the lodge members were racists. I see those incorrect beliefs have changed (or have they ?)
Mar 10, 2012 Rating
Anonymous Prince Hall by: Computer Guy
To join a lodge you must be a MAN and FREE born. I was not around in 1807 and know not the circumstances governing his denial into the Freemasons. Remember history is written by the victors. We have no laws or edicts denying admittance based on race, color or creed. One question I have is when your husband joined his lodge, were you not interviewed with him and asked if you had any problems with him joining the lodge and becoming a Freemason? You had your chance to say you did not support him and he would have been denied admittance at that point. A man can not become a Freemason without the full support of his family and spouse. So if you knew the requirements to become a Freemason and accepted them at the time, what has so drastically changed in your life to cause you to hate the Freemasons?
Mar 10, 2012 Rating
Computer Guy by: Mary Moody
She's possessive. Thats all. Look at the past submissions she's made to the page and it's all mapped out. I feel that it's a ruse using the whole, "It's because woman are excluded" thing which is why I am not going to acknowledge her anymore. If only her husband could see this. "Drop out or else" mentality of the woman he loves. He doesn't cheat or lie. He's a good man. She doesn't like him going to his man cave even though it makes him happy and feel important and she'll only be happy when/if the lodge dies. He'll be unhappy but she'll be happy. That's all that matters to Jane, the anonymous. I feel bad for such a wonderful man, father and husband.
Mar 11, 2012 Rating
computer guy (I guess not Mary) by: Anonymous
To answer your question Computer Guy, no. Nobody from the lodge came to interview me. I didn't know what being in the masons entailed until I looked up everything online and took out books from the library on the subject. If I had known all this crazy ritual stuff and bigotry against an entire gender, I would have raised objections.
FYI Mary, he has several "man caves" that he attends. Those do not bother me. The masons however, do. I did not give any ultimatums. If he wants to continue in the masons, fine. For me though, it isn't fine and at this point, I don't believe I can live with it. I am just being honest with myself and my husband. Just because I am not like you, doesn't mean I'm bad. Just because my husband wants to be in the masons, it's not bad or good. It's just something I can't live with.
Mar 15, 2012 Rating
New science supports ancient Masonic tradition by: Tim
In a similar discussion, "Women allowed in Freemasonry?" I attempted to explain my own reasoning for preserving the segregation of the sexes when it comes to the Masonic Lodge. I basically said that I thought it was a good idea because when women are around men become idiots. Well, now there's scientific evidence to back me up. A new article from Scientific American about a very recent study explains it much better than I can:
"Overall, it seems clear that whenever we face situations where we’re particularly concerned about the impression that we’re making, we may literally have difficulty thinking clearly. In the case of men, thinking about interacting with a woman is enough to make their brains go a bit fuzzy."
So, it's not an anitquated tradition after all. It's science.
Mar 15, 2012 Rating
abstract by: Anonymous
I had a few minutes so I looked up the abstract for the research mentioned above . It can be viewed on scottbarrykaufman.com. The thing I noticed about the sampling of research groups was that the mean age was 21. I would be curious to know the mean age of the members of a typical masonic lodge.
The research found that a male's performance on the Stroop test (see Tim's article) after being told that his responses on a lip reading test (fake)would be monitored by a woman, were much lower than a male being monitored by a male or that of a female being monitored by either gender.
The reason given for these results is that when someone is trying to make a good impression on another, it's too much for the brain to perform well on a test at the same time. Making a good impression it seems, taxes the brain's available resources.
So, the researchers cited research that suggests that males, even if they have no information about a woman, will spend their brain's resources on finding a potential sex partner. There was also research cited (Baumeister, DeWall, Ciarocco & Twenge, 2005), (Wan&Sternthal, 2008) that men do not engage in impression management if it does not seem worthwhile or if the female has low mate value (Wilson&Daly, 2004).
I would question the value of this research applied to the masonic lodge on the basis of age. I really doubt that the mean age of men in a lodge is 21. I don't think a man of 60 would be as hot for a sex partner as the average 21 year old male and therefore not as engaged in impression management.
I work with men who are in their mid to late 20's. I also work with many young (beautiful)women of that same age. The men do not fall all over themselves, forget what they are doing or fail do do their work. Either they are not engaging in impression management or are better at it than the men in the research.
I wonder if there were gay men in a masonic lodge who were in the closet, would they be unable to concentrate if they were engaging in impression management in looking over the other males for potential sex partners ?
It would appear from other research that if men see that impression management is not worthwhile, they do not engage in it. So, if they knew ahead of time that there was no possible chance with women masons, would they be able to concentrate on "the craft" ?
Apr 09, 2012 Rating
just looking for knowledge by: K A
In Reading these posts I have come up with a question that is not answered. I was told that the free masons were based on the fundamental teachings of Christianity. And if a free mason must believe in one god then how can he be discriminatory toward women because god obviously is not. Please know one get angry this just doesn't make any sense to me.
Apr 09, 2012 Rating
Reply to last. by: Mary Moody
It isn't based on Christianity. One must believe in "a" God. The Knights of Columbus is based on Christianity and they're apart of the Catholic Church which does not support the Freemasons. If you're a Catholic, you're not allowed to be a Freemason because the Catholics forbid it.
Am I correct, Computer Guy? :).
Apr 09, 2012 Rating
Mary by: Computer Guy
That is correct. The Pope does not allow Catholics to be members of the Freemasons.
Apr 09, 2012 Rating
Still looking for knowledge by: K A
I just find all of this so interesting. Is the catholic church opposed to this because the free masons are supposed to believe in "a god" It doesn't matter what god? And why do the free masons require thier members to believe in " a god"? Again please do not take offense to this questions I just have no knowledge!
Apr 09, 2012 Rating
Freemasons believe and trust in God - not "a god" by: Tim
There is only one God. A man must express an unfeigned belief in God, not "a god", before he can be made a Freemason. Moreover, the question is not simply do you believe in God, but in whom do you put your trust. So, a man must not only believe in God, but must place his faith and trust in Him.
The question gets complicated because of the different religions. Freemasonry is not a religion. It does not espouse any particular religion. It requires of its members a belief and trust in God, and beyond that every member is encouraged to practice the religious doctrine of their choice.
We have many members who are of the Catholic religion. I am not Catholic myself so I don't know the current state of the Church's position toward Freemasonry. I do know, however, that the trouble between the two began early in the 14th Century with Pope Clement V and the Knights Templar. According to the accepted version of history the Knights Templar had become very wealthy and powerful; King Philip IV of France needed money and colluded with Pope Clement V to take them down and confiscate their wealth. Among other things, the Pope issued a Papal Bull saying no Catholic could be one. Over time the history of the Knights Templar and the Freemasons became intertwined until a lot of people, even some Freemasons, believed they were the same. The law declared by the Papal Bull came to include Freemasons and Catholics were taught that Freemasons were bad guys. Some devout religious followers believe what they are taught and don't ask questions. Those who do ask questions often times go on to become Freemasons, but they remain devout followers of their religious faith.
Apr 09, 2012 Rating
Tim by: Computer Guy
That's not totally correct. I am not a what one would consider a christian. When I joined I was asked if I believe in God. I said not in the way most people think of God nor a God. I stated I believe in a higher power that governs all things upon this earth. That was all I had to say in order to become a Freemason. There are hindu's buddists, followers of islam, and many other religions that are allowed to become Freemasons. Not just those who believe in Christian based God.
Apr 09, 2012 Rating
God is God by: Tim
Where did I say that God is Christian? God is God. Call Him whatever you like, God, Allah, Bhudda, Great Architect of the Universe, the wind beneath my wings. It doesn't matter what name you give Him. You stated that you "believe in a higher power that governs all things upon this earth." That is God.
Our minds are not capable of comprehending the true nature of God, and by the very act of trying to understand Him within the limits of our intellect we are limiting Him. You're still stuck on Religion. Freemasonry has nothing to do with Religious doctrine. You have to look beyond the God of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Bhuddism, and all the other Religions and realize that they are all the same God.
Apr 09, 2012 Rating
Tim by: Computer Guy
I was just clarifying your response there is only one true God. A god, in Christian religion would be anything other than God. Therefore a belief in a god holds true here, since a Christian doesn't recognize any other god nor do any other religions across the board. If they did we wouldn't have wars in the name of God.
Apr 09, 2012 Rating
Tim by: K A
You have been very helpful! Here's another question for you. What's up with the secrets? If any secrets were to be told what could be the harm? In my life time secrets people kept always turned out to be hiding something bad. Am I right in assuming these secrets just deal with pride and honor of your members? Thanks again for answering my questions.
Apr 09, 2012 Rating
Pluralism has no place in Freemasonry by: Tim
To say that Freemasonry requires belief in "a god" infers an acceptance that there is more than one. Pluralism has no place in Freemasonry. But, perhaps it's the word, "God" that causes the confusion as it is most often associated with the Christian Religion. So, let's call Him/Her Omni, instead.
Omni is all around and within everything; Omni is the basic principle from which all things come, and to which all things go. Omni is the supreme intelligence, creator and governor of all there is. Omni is unlimited, immortal and unimaginable.
How a person relates to Omni; which Religion he/she chooses to follow has no bearing in Freemasonry. That's why it's called religious tolerance and why we do not discuss religion in our meetings. It is divisive and as you say, CG, wars have been fought in His/Her name. But in truth those wars were, and continue to be, fought due to religious fanaticism.
Perhaps a better question is why must a man express an unfeigned belief in God/Omni before he can be made a Freemason?
Apr 09, 2012 Rating
To K A regarding Masonic Secrets by: Tim
Hello K A,
I'm glad you've found this discussion useful.
Regarding Masonic secrets and what would happen should someone reveal them, here is a link to another page on Masonsmart where we attempted to answer that very question. I hope you find it useful, as well.
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